Energy in America, economics, politics, environment, science, technology, etc.

“ It’s bewildering to think that in a world of FINITE resources, that we’ve built an entire economy on INFINITE growth “
The burning of a resource that also is needed for durable goods
Even at a 100 year reservoir of fossil fuel burning any of it is short sited.
 
“ It’s bewildering to think that in a world of FINITE resources, that we’ve built an entire economy on INFINITE growth “
The burning of a resource that also is needed for durable goods
Even at a 100 year reservoir of fossil fuel burning any of it is short sited.
In theory? Recycling technology and abundant energy via solar and or fusion power allows us to reprocess metals and other scarce resources. A balanced population? Reduces demand for resources. Future access to the resources present in the solar system? Extends any resource bottleneck for an indefinite period.

I'm not saying this will happen BTW, just that it could happen.
 
In theory? Recycling technology and abundant energy via solar and or fusion power allows us to reprocess metals and other scarce resources. A balanced population? Reduces demand for resources. Future access to the resources present in the solar system? Extends any resource bottleneck for an indefinite period.

I'm not saying this will happen BTW, just that it could happen.
Yes it could happen , but with the path of this American government that will not happen. More pollution and greed will not save this planet. That’s why I love Dr, Clark’s explanation in Rama. Evolve then disappear.due to bad planning.
 
DOR,

One argument about solar is it takes land out of use for farming...that is a real sore point in my county right now as 3 large farms have or are in the process of being taken out of production and converted to solar farms.

This makes sense as Dominion Power operates one of the most polluting coal fired plants within view of the RIchmond skyline and a nuke plant down river.

Some local farmers are up in arms over this as they see the loss of farmland as an "assault" on family farms.

The counter argument to that is the Netherlands...where almost all land is used to produce tulips, dairy and some grans and all other food is raised hydroponically indoors.

Also you need to add to all of these the cost of maintenance as you cannot just build and leave them....hydro damn maintenance and erosion, nuke refueling, coal annual shutdown for cleaning, etc.

Interesting topic.

When I was in college in the 1970s I took a poli sci class based on 4 areas....Energy, Food, Water & Weather. Very Rollerball-ish. We studied the future impacts on the global situation based on these 4 resource areas. Interesting to see how things have played out over the intervening 40+ years.
The placement of solar is an issue , this is why , here in central Ohio, I have been trying to get the data centers to take some responsibility for the increased needs for power by installing solar panels on their buildings. Each data center is about a square mile of roof area. They could be helping in the solution. Instead they are not being asked to help but instead being allowed to build their own fossil fuel power plants. They do zero to engineer their buildings to be cooler. We are building one of those farm solar places. The sheep farming that solar farms create is one development. The other , not being done here, is a higher solar farm allowing farming on the land under the panels.
 
DOR,

One argument about solar is it takes land out of use for farming...that is a real sore point in my county right now as 3 large farms have or are in the process of being taken out of production and converted to solar farms.
It comes down to the value of the land (with one other consideration). Good quality farming land is expensive. On the other hand ideally solar farms should be placed in areas which maximize clear skies/low precipitation i.e arid and semi arid regions . The exception? situations where agriculture and solar panels don't clash. There are examples of agricultural regions where solar panels provide shade for crops and/or improve grazing for animals by reducing evaporation.

But the thing is with the right polices? You don't need lots of solar farms. Put solar cells on the roofs of most homes, commercial buildings and factories in towns and cities along with a battery pack beside each one? Then large solar 'farms' while still needed? Become much less common.
 
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It comes down to the value of the land (with an one other consideration). Good quality farming land is expensive. On the other hand ideally solar farms should be placed in areas which maximize clear skies/low precipitation i.e arid and semi arid regions . The exception? situations where agriculture and solar panels don't clash. There are examples of agricultural regions where solar panels provide shade for crops and/or improve grazing for animals by reducing evaporation.

But the thing is with the right polices? You don't need lots of solar farms. Put solar cells on the roofs of most homes, commercial buildings and factories in towns and cities along with a battery pack beside each one? and large solar 'farms' while still needed become much less common.
That is my campaign in Ohio. The data centers I worked at have zero renewables, they have a square mile of roof and lots of empty land that should be covered with solar panels. They also are giant wind tunnels . But in the fossil fuel loving Ohio we are building them fossil fuel private power plants to add to the heat and need for more cooling.
 
“ It’s bewildering to think that in a world of FINITE resources, that we’ve built an entire economy on INFINITE growth “
It's a post-1990 worldview.

DOR,

One argument about solar is it takes land out of use for farming...that is a real sore point in my county right now as 3 large farms have or are in the process of being taken out of production and converted to solar farms...

One thing I don't get about this point is I live near a good bit of land politely termed industrial wasteland. Considering that the land is mostly unusable without massive amounts of investment that is not coming, and a solar panel largely does not care where it's located as long as it has access to sunlight, I wonder why the landowner (typically a corporation that could not care less) would not seek to get some revenue from the land and plop down some solar panels. Nothing else it would pay the tax bills. It's probably similar to why contractors would rather build 40 homes with the same design on 10 acres versus renovating old homes where they cannot amortize.

Good quality farming land is expensive.

Remove the potential of good quality farming land to be sold to a developer for a subdivision and the cost would go down. If American demographics continue its current trajectory combined with evicting all the immigrants, land costs in theory should go down if there's no demand for new housing developments. Probably have to await until most of the Baby Boomers have died/are in nursing homes to see this theory play out in real life.
 
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It's a post-1990 worldview.



One thing I don't get about this point is I live near a good bit of land politely termed industrial wasteland. Considering that the land is mostly unusable without massive amounts of investment that is not coming, and a solar panel largely does not care where it's located as long as it has access to sunlight, I wonder why the landowner (typically a corporation that could not care less) would not seek to get some revenue from the land and plop down some solar panels. Nothing else it would pay the tax bills. It's probably similar to why contractors would rather build 40 homes with the same design on 10 acres versus renovating old homes where they cannot amortize.



Remove the potential of good quality farming land to be sold to a developer for a subdivision and the cost would go down. If American demographics continue its current trajectory combined with evicting all the immigrants, land costs in theory should go down if there's no demand for new housing developments. Probably have to await until most of the Baby Boomers have died/are in nursing homes to see this theory play out in real life.

Most of the demand for housing outside of say California or Texas is in large urban centers and their satellite townships i.e. where the jobs are. Most of Rural America? Isn't going to see it's best farmland turned into housing. In fact in demographic terms rural America is hollowing out. People are leaving and following the jobs - to those same urban centers.
 
Most of the demand for housing outside of say California or Texas is in large urban centers and their satellite townships i.e. where the jobs are. Most of Rural America? Isn't going to see it's best farmland turned into housing. In fact in demographic terms rural America is hollowing out. People are leaving and following the jobs - to those same urban centers.
Census Bureau put out its population updates this week.

"A forecast of the 2030 US Census has Texas and Florida gaining 4 house seats, Georgia, North Carolina, Arizona, Utah, and Idaho gaining 1 seat, Oregon, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island losing 1 seat, Illinois and New York losing 2 seats, and California losing 4 seats."
 
Census Bureau put out its population updates this week.

"A forecast of the 2030 US Census has Texas and Florida gaining 4 house seats, Georgia, North Carolina, Arizona, Utah, and Idaho gaining 1 seat, Oregon, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island losing 1 seat, Illinois and New York losing 2 seats, and California losing 4 seats."
Retirees will account for most of the movement to Florida and Arizona as the population is aging. Just as the local economies doing well in Texas and badly in California account for the adjustments there.
 
It comes down to the value of the land (with one other consideration). Good quality farming land is expensive. On the other hand ideally solar farms should be placed in areas which maximize clear skies/low precipitation i.e arid and semi arid regions . The exception? situations where agriculture and solar panels don't clash. There are examples of agricultural regions where solar panels provide shade for crops and/or improve grazing for animals by reducing evaporation.

But the thing is with the right polices? You don't need lots of solar farms. Put solar cells on the roofs of most homes, commercial buildings and factories in towns and cities along with a battery pack beside each one? Then large solar 'farms' while still needed? Become much less common.

If I understand it correctly one of the reasons things like wind farms & solar farms can't fully be replaced by rooftop solar is feeding power backl into the grid. From what I understand it is easier and more efficient to feed back larger amounts from single generation facilities than lots and lots of smaller amounts from home generation.

While localized generation and batteries will help, we will still need LOTS of larger generation for places that can't generate power or generate enough.
 
If I understand it correctly one of the reasons things like wind farms & solar farms can't fully be replaced by rooftop solar is feeding power backl into the grid. From what I understand it is easier and more efficient to feed back larger amounts from single generation facilities than lots and lots of smaller amounts from home generation.

While localized generation and batteries will help, we will still need LOTS of larger generation for places that can't generate power or generate enough.
Cant speak for wind farms, beyond noting they are isolated by geography to locations with average higher winds speeds that last for longer periods of time. Solar farms? You can just about put anywhere although obviously at higher latitudes and in cloudier parts of the world it's less efficient. The thing is though China has already shown that large scale solar farms don't have to consume or disturb valuable farming land. In fact tey've already been proven that under certain conditions it they can actually enhance the protective capacity of farmland they are built on by providing shade and changing the micro climate beneath the rows of panels.

It's not universally true (depending on climate & soil types) but this is apparently an active area of study i.e. testing how to integrate large scale solar farms in without reducing productivity and in some circumstances actually increasing it where possible.
 
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If I understand it correctly one of the reasons things like wind farms & solar farms can't fully be replaced by rooftop solar is feeding power backl into the grid. From what I understand it is easier and more efficient to feed back larger amounts from single generation facilities than lots and lots of smaller amounts from home generation.

While localized generation and batteries will help, we will still need LOTS of larger generation for places that can't generate power or generate enough.
having solar on rooftops also creates a danger to Utility workers. Its easy to isolate the problem area with one point of entry on the grid. When there are multiple points where power is being fed through and either there is no way to isolate those or they are not known then linemen get electrocuted. Its like hooking your emergency generator to your breaker box when the power is out. You not only feed your house but you also energize the lines coming to your home.
 
Duke Energy has been building huge solar farms on what was swamp before Hurricane Michael. Not wetlands but the water table is high enough
that the land wont pass a soil compaction test for building construction. But has no problem holding solar panels in place.
 
Cant speak for wind farms, beyond noting they are isolated by geography to locations with average higher winds speeds that last for longer periods of time. Solar farms? You can just about put anywhere although obviously at higher latitudes and in cloudier parts of the world it's less efficient. The thing is though China has already shown that large scale solar farms don't have to consume or disturb valuable farming land. In fact tey've already been proven that under certain conditions it they can actually enhance the protective capacity of farmland they are built on by providing shade and changing the micro climate beneath the rows of panels.

It's not universally true (depending on climate & soil types) but this is apparently an active area of study i.e. testing how to integrate large scale solar farms in without reducing productivity and in some circumstances actually increasing it where possible.

Solar farms near built up areas have faced pushback from residents concerned about potential battery fires, but I'm not sure how successful these challenges have been. Like a lot of opposition to wind farms there are organized & well funded groups out there trying to scare people & happy to help fund their opposition, justified or not.

I have never been all that convinced by the 'save the farmland' argument from any pespective. There may be a few places in the world where farmland is genuinely limited and some types of solar farm may be an issue, but I'm betting those are legitimate edge cases. In Australia they are just laughable. WA has more arable land than the UK. Some of the best farmland in Victoria is sitting under houses in the Sth East suburbs and more gets eaten up every year. I don't know how much we lose every year to poor farming practices that have caused salinity, erosion & desertification or to fires fuelled by increasing temperatures. More than solar I'm betting.

I have heard some decent arguments that renewables won't be able to completely replace fossil fuels as power generators. I have yet to hear a decent argument for not installing more renewables. Some individual projects might not stack up, but installing more renewable capacity needs to continue as quickly as is viable.
 
Solar farms near built up areas have faced pushback from residents concerned about potential battery fires, but I'm not sure how successful these challenges have been. Like a lot of opposition to wind farms there are organized & well funded groups out there trying to scare people & happy to help fund their opposition, justified or not.

I have never been all that convinced by the 'save the farmland' argument from any pespective. There may be a few places in the world where farmland is genuinely limited and some types of solar farm may be an issue, but I'm betting those are legitimate edge cases. In Australia they are just laughable. WA has more arable land than the UK. Some of the best farmland in Victoria is sitting under houses in the Sth East suburbs and more gets eaten up every year. I don't know how much we lose every year to poor farming practices that have caused salinity, erosion & desertification or to fires fuelled by increasing temperatures. More than solar I'm betting.

I have heard some decent arguments that renewables won't be able to completely replace fossil fuels as power generators. I have yet to hear a decent argument for not installing more renewables. Some individual projects might not stack up, but installing more renewable capacity needs to continue as quickly as is viable.
On the battery issue? Residents opposing a solar farm for that reason are probably concerned about lithium batteries being used. The thing is they're often not the best choice because other chemistries with lower energy densities are perfectly acceptable for static energy storage and they're usually both cheaper and non combustible or at least far less combustible than lithium.

There's a YouTube channel called 'Undecided' by a guy called Matt Farrel (I think) that deep dives into all the questions about batteries, solar power and global energy trends in general that I use to get my information. He gives straight unbiased analysis
 
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On the battery issue residents opposing a solar farm for that reason are probably concerned about lithium batteries being used. The thing is their often not the best choice because other chemistries with lower energy densities are perfectly acceptable for static energy storage and they're often both cheaper and non combustible or at least far less combustible than lithium.

There's a YouTube channel called 'Undecided' by a guy called Matt Farrel (I think) that deep dives into all the questions about batteries, solar power and global energy trends in general that I use to get my information. He gives straight unbiased analysis

I'm familiar with the channel. He's very good.

I think a lot of the opposition to these projects is fuelled by bad actors who are scaring people for their own less than good reasons.

Oh, and I just saw something interesting re: agricultural land. This is a specifically US issue, but America turns quite a bit of corn into ethanol to go into cars - a government mandated scheme to prop up some rural areas. If all of that land was turned over to solar panels they could generate the equivalent of 84% of all current US electricity production.

Interesting.
 
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I'm familiar with the channel. He's very good.

I think a lot of the opposition to these projects is fuelled by bad actors who are scaring people for their own less than good reasons.

Oh, and I just saw something interesting re: agricultural land. This is a specifically US issue, but America turns quite a bit of corn into ethanol to go into cars - a government mandated scheme to prop up some rural areas. If all of that land was turned over to solar panels they could generate the equivalent of 84% of all current US electricity production.

Interesting.
You could probably have both corn and solar if you angled and dispersed the panels properly (at least to a degree). The thing is that IMO subsidies for bio fuel production are really just a boondoggle designed to raise the income of corn farmers. The US subsidizes corn production for ethanol to the tune of about 20 billion USD p.a. At the same time total bio-fuel output p.a. (including from sources other than corn) makes up only about 5% of domestic fuel consumption. So whats the point other than keeping politicians in their seats?
 
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