O
Officer of Engineers
Guest
Four Chinese armies is pretty blunt talk. No matter what they say, those four armies always keep their options open. Until they start withdrawing those armies, no matter what they say, you have to keep those armies in mind as the final arbitrator.
That is not the same with the DL. You need to be able to trust what he says, even if he says he'll drown a 1000 Tibetans to get one Han-Chinese. Say what you will about Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. When they say they'll come get you, believe them.
You can't beg for your freedom. It has to be earned through blood. Sometimes, fighting against your oppressors (US). Others, you become more powerful than your overseers (India). The way Tibet did it (Qing got busy elsewhere) doesn't work. It invites more powerful neigbours to take over (Saxons over post-Roman Britons)
Somewhat misleading. Immigrant families do outnumber Tibetans but there are now more Tibetans than during DL's rule and the immigrants are made up of both Han and Hui which are mistakenly lumped together. Tibetans are no longer the majority but they do form the plurality in Tibet.
Does not mean that their culture is not under threat but the Tibetan people are not in any danger of dying out.
Wake me up when we have an army willing to take the Chinese to court. The Khmer Rouge, the Russians, the Congolese, and the British (Bengal famine) have not been brought to justice.
When are we going to give Ontario back to the Algonquins? Or California to Mexico?
As compared to the Chechens? Eighty percent of the population was deported to Siberia during WWII. Not all 80% returned.
How much assistance did the Chechens, or even the Taliban got?
The Brits left simply because they got tired of bleeding. Do you actually think the US had a chance against the Napoleonic Armies? In this context, the Tibetans cannot do this job half ass. They have to be willing to outbleed the Chinese. Within the Chechen context, that means 200,000 freezing to death and cities will be like Grozny, a wasteland and the Tibetans will have to out-monster the Chinese, doing Beslans, making Tibet unwelcoming to Chinese families.
If there's a will, there's a way. Too many examples of others doing with less.
Doktor
New member
I wonder, how much British blood Canada spilled for her independence?
cdude
Banned
A more fair question is how much British blood Northern Ireland spilled for her independence?
Oh, false question. It aint independent yet.
O
Officer of Engineers
Guest
Like I said, some countries can no longer be controlled and thus must be granted independence. Canada's moment came at Vimy Ridge where the Brits could no longer dictate how the Canadians were going to fight ... or the Canadians go home
O
Officer of Engineers
Guest
Tibet's history is filled with spilt innocent blood. From the time they conquered the Tang Dynasty to the first DL calling in the Mongols.
Or hardened them for generations to come.
The price has been paid and Russian immigration practically doesn't exist. Was it worth it? I don't know but they don't have to pay that price again for generations to come.
First of all, they're not Xians, they're Uyghars. Xian Jiang has a number of other significant ethnic groups such as the Hui and Mongols. They side with the CCP against the rebels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang#Demographics gives somewhat a breakdown of where they live and how. Not surprisingly, the Hans concentrate around the urban centres where their skills are needed. The Uyghars have the run of the rest of the province where Hans can be counted on one hand.
Well, this is surprising
Tibet Autonomous Region - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
90%+ of Tibet's population is Tibetan. Now, I know what the DL claims and it may be true that there are a hell of a lot of Han and Hui in Tibet but according to this, they have no rights in Tibet. They're businessmen, not migrants and have no dwelling rights in Tibet. The Tibetan Governor can kick them out anytime he chooses.
First of all, the KLA only won because of NATO airpower and Miolosevic's cowardice.
They got the Israelis negotiating their state rights.
Come on, just because I gave a short retort to your post, does not mean I am ignorant of the other facts and details.
He cannot incite any without the help of India.
India stopped assisting the Tibetan rebels in return for China stopping assistance to the Naga rebel groups.
If he wants to start an insurgency then he shall have to find another base.
cdude
Banned
北京簋街 汉族餐饮店与藏族摊贩群殴 - YouTube
A recent fight between Tibetan vendors and Han vendors in Beijing. If you don't know, Tibetans are on the near side throwing bricks.
Cops are useless as usual.
There was this one dude trying to drag the conversation to Nazi Germany (this is internet, so no surprise).
When was the last time Jews kicking asses in Berlin?
A recent fight between Tibetan vendors and Han vendors in Beijing. If you don't know, Tibetans are on the near side throwing bricks.
Cops are useless as usual.
There was this one dude trying to drag the conversation to Nazi Germany (this is internet, so no surprise).
When was the last time Jews kicking asses in Berlin?
cdude
Banned
For this particular fight, I am with the Tibetans. These guys are good people, living an honest life in Beijing. The cops could've been more decisive in de-escalating the situation.
cataphract
New member
Did not know this. I thought the cessation of suppport had more to do with the border dispute negotiations going on at that time. Could you please provide a source sir?
Read this article, it shall give you some idea of the north-east insurgent groups.
Of suspicions, rivalries and double crossings | The Asian Age
Another source:
http://www.idsa-india.org/an-nov-00-8.html
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doppelganger
Banned
View attachment 32957
Text of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh‘s statement to the media on Monday on Chinese Premier Li Keqiang’s visit to India:
It is an honour for me to welcome Premier Li on his first official visit to India. It has been an immense pleasure to get to know him personally. I sincerely appreciate his reaching out to me on his first day in office and his choosing India as his first foreign destination as Premier.
Starting yesterday evening, Premier Li and I have had wide-ranging and candid discussions covering all matters of mutual interest and concern. I am delighted that there are so many areas of convergence between us and on which there is a great deal of meeting of minds. Most importantly, we agreed that the relationship between our two countries is of growing significance and essential for our peaceful development and sustained economic growth, as well as for stability and prosperity in our region and the world.
India and China are two civilizational neighbours and have lived in peace through the ages. We have had our differences in more recent times, but over the last 25 years, we have steadily built a mutually beneficial relationship. The basis for continued growth and expansion of our ties is peace and tranquility on our borders. While seeking an early resolution of the boundary question, Premier Li and I agreed that this must continue to be preserved.
We also took stock of lessons learnt from the recent incident in the Western Sector, when existing mechanisms proved their worth. We tasked our Special Representatives to consider further measures that may be needed to maintain peace and tranquility along the border. We agreed that our Special Representatives will meet soon to continue discussions, seeking early agreement on a framework for a fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable boundary settlement.
I also reiterated to Premier Li India’s concerns about the effects on lower riparians of activities in the upper reaches of our shared rivers. It would be useful for the mandate of our Expert Level Mechanism to be expanded to include information sharing on upstream development projects on these rivers. I am glad that we have agreed to expand cooperation on trans-border rivers. It would also be useful for India and China to collaborate on a better understanding of the stresses on our shared Himalayan ecosystem.
I shared with Premier Li my view that the rise of China and India is good for the world and that the world has enough space to accommodate the growth aspirations of both our peoples. To make this a reality, it is important to build understanding between our two peoples. We agreed that both sides must work to strengthen greater trust and confidence, which, in turn, will permit much larger co-operation.
Economic cooperation constitutes a very important part of our relationship and the growth potential of our two economies can provide the engine for greater cooperation.There are many ongoing areas of co-operation that we will carry forward as outlined in the Joint Statement. I conveyed to Premier Li our concerns about the trade deficit and sought increased market access to China for our exports and investments. I also invited increased Chinese involvement in the vast opportunities in our infrastructure and manufacturing sectors.
The rapid development of our economies has opened up new opportunities for economic cooperation bilaterally, in our region and globally, which our Strategic Economic Dialogue will identify andexplore. We have also discussed the possibility of infrastructure development to link India’s North Eastern region with Bangladesh, Myanmar, China and other countries in the South East Asian region.
Premier Li and I also used the opportunity to review the rapidly evolving global political and economic situation and resolved to strengthen our strategic communication and dialogue on these issues. We also agreed that we have a shared interest in an open multilateral trading system and in combating protectionism.
Before I conclude, let me say again what a pleasure it has been to welcome Premier Li amongst us. I am sure that his leadership will go a long way in strengthening the relationship between our two countries and extending it to new frontiers. I look forward to seeing him again very soon and I have also accepted his gracious invitation to visit China at the earliest opportunity.
http://www.firstpost.com/world/full...tement-to-media-on-china-pm-visit-799463.html
Text of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh‘s statement to the media on Monday on Chinese Premier Li Keqiang’s visit to India:
It is an honour for me to welcome Premier Li on his first official visit to India. It has been an immense pleasure to get to know him personally. I sincerely appreciate his reaching out to me on his first day in office and his choosing India as his first foreign destination as Premier.
Starting yesterday evening, Premier Li and I have had wide-ranging and candid discussions covering all matters of mutual interest and concern. I am delighted that there are so many areas of convergence between us and on which there is a great deal of meeting of minds. Most importantly, we agreed that the relationship between our two countries is of growing significance and essential for our peaceful development and sustained economic growth, as well as for stability and prosperity in our region and the world.
India and China are two civilizational neighbours and have lived in peace through the ages. We have had our differences in more recent times, but over the last 25 years, we have steadily built a mutually beneficial relationship. The basis for continued growth and expansion of our ties is peace and tranquility on our borders. While seeking an early resolution of the boundary question, Premier Li and I agreed that this must continue to be preserved.
We also took stock of lessons learnt from the recent incident in the Western Sector, when existing mechanisms proved their worth. We tasked our Special Representatives to consider further measures that may be needed to maintain peace and tranquility along the border. We agreed that our Special Representatives will meet soon to continue discussions, seeking early agreement on a framework for a fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable boundary settlement.
I also reiterated to Premier Li India’s concerns about the effects on lower riparians of activities in the upper reaches of our shared rivers. It would be useful for the mandate of our Expert Level Mechanism to be expanded to include information sharing on upstream development projects on these rivers. I am glad that we have agreed to expand cooperation on trans-border rivers. It would also be useful for India and China to collaborate on a better understanding of the stresses on our shared Himalayan ecosystem.
I shared with Premier Li my view that the rise of China and India is good for the world and that the world has enough space to accommodate the growth aspirations of both our peoples. To make this a reality, it is important to build understanding between our two peoples. We agreed that both sides must work to strengthen greater trust and confidence, which, in turn, will permit much larger co-operation.
Economic cooperation constitutes a very important part of our relationship and the growth potential of our two economies can provide the engine for greater cooperation.There are many ongoing areas of co-operation that we will carry forward as outlined in the Joint Statement. I conveyed to Premier Li our concerns about the trade deficit and sought increased market access to China for our exports and investments. I also invited increased Chinese involvement in the vast opportunities in our infrastructure and manufacturing sectors.
The rapid development of our economies has opened up new opportunities for economic cooperation bilaterally, in our region and globally, which our Strategic Economic Dialogue will identify andexplore. We have also discussed the possibility of infrastructure development to link India’s North Eastern region with Bangladesh, Myanmar, China and other countries in the South East Asian region.
Premier Li and I also used the opportunity to review the rapidly evolving global political and economic situation and resolved to strengthen our strategic communication and dialogue on these issues. We also agreed that we have a shared interest in an open multilateral trading system and in combating protectionism.
Before I conclude, let me say again what a pleasure it has been to welcome Premier Li amongst us. I am sure that his leadership will go a long way in strengthening the relationship between our two countries and extending it to new frontiers. I look forward to seeing him again very soon and I have also accepted his gracious invitation to visit China at the earliest opportunity.
http://www.firstpost.com/world/full...tement-to-media-on-china-pm-visit-799463.html
doppelganger
Banned
China: PM Singh takes tough stand on border incursion
New Delhi, May 21: India on Monday clearly told China that it can not accept disturbance of the status quo on the border area and incidents like the recent incursion in Depsang could derail bilateral ties.
The new stance was asserted by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh after he met his visiting Chinese counterpart Li Keqiang, saying the basis for continued growth and expansion of ties between India and China is peace and tranquility on the borders.
Singh said the two countries, following a frank discussion, took stock of lessons learnt from the recent incident in the western sector. He, however, mentioned that the existing mechanisms helped in diffusing the latest border tension.
The focus on peace on the border areas is a significant shift in New Delhi's policy towards Beijing for so far the former looked eager not to let the border friction hinder cooperation in other spheres and it seems to be a clear consequence of the Ladakh incursion last month. The government, although said then that it was a local issue, but its strong stance now reflects the seriousness of the issue.
Both India and China have agreed to quicken steps to resolve the border differences. India's National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon and his Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi will meet in the next six weeks to take the boundary talks forward. India will push for clarificication of the controversial Line of Actual Control. The two sides have already exchanged maps in the middle sector and have shown maps in the western sector. India will seek early agreement on a "fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable boundary settlement", Singh said.
Meanwhile, the Chinese Premier is set to arrive in Mumbai on Tuesday.
China: PM Singh takes tough stand on border incursion - Oneindia News
New Delhi, May 21: India on Monday clearly told China that it can not accept disturbance of the status quo on the border area and incidents like the recent incursion in Depsang could derail bilateral ties.
The new stance was asserted by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh after he met his visiting Chinese counterpart Li Keqiang, saying the basis for continued growth and expansion of ties between India and China is peace and tranquility on the borders.
Singh said the two countries, following a frank discussion, took stock of lessons learnt from the recent incident in the western sector. He, however, mentioned that the existing mechanisms helped in diffusing the latest border tension.
The focus on peace on the border areas is a significant shift in New Delhi's policy towards Beijing for so far the former looked eager not to let the border friction hinder cooperation in other spheres and it seems to be a clear consequence of the Ladakh incursion last month. The government, although said then that it was a local issue, but its strong stance now reflects the seriousness of the issue.
Both India and China have agreed to quicken steps to resolve the border differences. India's National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon and his Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi will meet in the next six weeks to take the boundary talks forward. India will push for clarificication of the controversial Line of Actual Control. The two sides have already exchanged maps in the middle sector and have shown maps in the western sector. India will seek early agreement on a "fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable boundary settlement", Singh said.
Meanwhile, the Chinese Premier is set to arrive in Mumbai on Tuesday.
China: PM Singh takes tough stand on border incursion - Oneindia News
cataphract
New member
Good stuff. I didn't know China's support for northeast insurgencies was so widespread. In reply, how could the RAW only manage to arm the Karens in Burma? There was enough diversity in Yunnan and enough devastation from the Cultural Revolution in the 1970s to foment a few insurgencies. A wasted opportunity IMO.
The insurgency in the north east has little to do with chinese support. That region sticks out like a sore thumb. If it weren't the chinese, the insurgents would have found some other country for military training and financial support.
Some hundred years ago, the han chinese seem to have been on hostile terms with these people for some reason. They were chased away from south china and many of them were forced to cross the himalayas and finally took refuge in the hills in north east which still remain remote and isolated areas in modern india. They have been fighting with indian forces for almost a century.
Some guy from some university calls these regions as "zomia" - the people from the hills.
Read on this link
The Undiscovered Country - NYTimes.com
Some hundred years ago, the han chinese seem to have been on hostile terms with these people for some reason. They were chased away from south china and many of them were forced to cross the himalayas and finally took refuge in the hills in north east which still remain remote and isolated areas in modern india. They have been fighting with indian forces for almost a century.
Some guy from some university calls these regions as "zomia" - the people from the hills.
Read on this link
The Undiscovered Country - NYTimes.com
The Karens were the main group that harmed the Burmese military and they were used to disuade the Burmese from giving anti-Indian groups any base. It worked.
However, Burma is still a source for military equipment for many rebel groups.
antimony
New member
Maybe because they bought Glocks? I am sure some one with a 1911 would have far more sense.
O
Officer of Engineers
Guest
You charge up a hill with an armed blocking force, ignoring all demands to stop, including warning shots (I don't believe for one second this reporter), and you're determined not to stop. What does it look like from the other side? A car trying to ram you. I would have shot too.Why do they do these things?
I have actually read some crazy things about the treatment doled out to the tibetans by the chinese military in trustworthy news sources.
A knife for a knife and a gun for a gun, right?
But brute force projection of military, pointless clampdowns and humiliation as a counter against determination and will power? this doesn't make sense.
I was talking about nation building and the maintenance of territorial integrity without the need of military occupation.
The paks are illogical players but I see policy similarity between the way the paks and the chinese handle their ethnic territory. But if the chinese are logical players, I fail to see the machiavellianism here because if they keep this up, they're not only going to loose tibet(more quickly) in the long run but they're also going to turn them against itself.
A knife for a knife and a gun for a gun, right?
But brute force projection of military, pointless clampdowns and humiliation as a counter against determination and will power? this doesn't make sense.
I was talking about nation building and the maintenance of territorial integrity without the need of military occupation.
The paks are illogical players but I see policy similarity between the way the paks and the chinese handle their ethnic territory. But if the chinese are logical players, I fail to see the machiavellianism here because if they keep this up, they're not only going to loose tibet(more quickly) in the long run but they're also going to turn them against itself.
O
Officer of Engineers
Guest
And most of it is kung fu. Tibetan pole staff against police batons.
Numbers don't make sense. 90% of Tibet's population is still ethnic Tibetan according to the last census and they control 90% of the territory. BTW, this incident is not even within Tibet itself but actual Chinese territory. This means that 90% of Tibet is not being watched by the PLA.
I'm not sure because they try ridiculously hard to remove traces of the dalai lama or tibet. It's sometimes funny and sometimes very shocking too.
That's what I was saying. These people are not your average insurgents with AKs and land mines. They are weapon-less yet the chinese are paranoid about them.
I think the chinese are fully aware of their position in tibet. They probably know exactly that they are on foreign territory. The question is, if they are not trying to win over tibetans hearts then what do they plan to do with tibet?
IMO, tibet is a buffer zone between india and china. What do you think?
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O
Officer of Engineers
Guest
Only on the surface and they don't try that hard. To go to a temple. Walk through and if they see something obvious, they take it down but they don't go through every closet or lift every veil. The monks sees them coming, they put a veil over the DL's picture. They leave. They take off the veil. It's not like they ransack every nook and cranny. The cops know there are DL pics there. The monks know the cops know there are DL pics there. As long as everybody plays by the rules, nobody gets hurt. It's only when the monks are defiant and openly display the DL pics, whatever, that forces the cops to act.
There is no paranoia. Otherwise, you will see APCs with fully loaded weapons on every corner. The rules are everybody sticks to kung fu. Swords are even forbidden. Pole staff against baton.
They're winning more than you know. I used to buy into the myth that Han and Hui are slowly displacing the local ethnic Tibetan population, ie outnumbering them. Then I read the census. 90% of Tibet's population are still Tibetans and most of the non-Tibetans are located in the two main cities. That means 90% of the Tibetans controlling 90% of Tibet don't really care for independence. They might not like Chinese rule and they might even like the idea of the DL returning to power but they're not doing anything about it.
The DL and his monks are full of shit. The numbers don't support him. Tibet should be a hell of a lot more unstable if Tibetans really wants independence.
Four group armies in the Chengdu MR is what I think.
Q: Do you know how the paks lost the love from majority kashmiris and kashmir?
A: By turning kashmir into a warzone through insurgency
Muslim kashmir didn't have a common ground with hindu india until the paks began a blunder of a policy in the 90s which actually worked in indias favour.
India is a union consisting of more than 2 dozen ethnic and several racial groups. We have more secessionist groups operating in india than any other state in asia. Nation building(in this part of the world) is a 100+ year process. Our effort has been to keep history "uneventful" with the insurgents as much as possible. We've tried our luck by giving autonomy to secessionists but it has only managed to calm them down a bit but the demand for separate state still exists. We've organized ceasefires. We actually let these insurgents run wild in their own territory as long as they don't step outside their territory. Some of them run a virtual dictatorship(organized crime) by rigging polls though it has managed to keep history "uneventful" for india. Our hope is with the next generation of adults from these regions who have been travelling all across india and the world so we think it'll be more easy for us to talk to rather than their current fathers and grandfathers who had lived in a period where india had just started to understand nation building and our old politicians believed in fist rather than brain. Today's india has changed dramatically. We understand that we have to let some things run its course.
You see, our secessionists don't actually want autonomy. But we imposed autonomy on them anyway to make peace and buy more time. What they really want is a nation that they can call home. They want to feel that they truly belong to this nation. This is true nation building and it is not a 2 or 10 yr process. It takes generations.
What I'm trying to say is that china is several decades behind when it comes to "nation building" - ie incorporating tibets people into china. In fact, I don't see any desire. Pakistan is a nation in-exile so bengalis, balochis or pashtuns never mattered to them in the first place. But what about china? The history between china and tibet has been "eventful" and continues to be "eventful". I'm asking, has history been so "eventful" that it is no longer possible to incorporate tibet into china?
At this point, I look at tibet and china the way I look at pakistan and afghanistan.
Pakistan is in afghanistan because it thinks it will flip
Similarly, china is in tibet too because it thinks it will flip also
The difference is that pakistan controls afghanistan though proxies while china controls tibet through military occupation
A: By turning kashmir into a warzone through insurgency
Muslim kashmir didn't have a common ground with hindu india until the paks began a blunder of a policy in the 90s which actually worked in indias favour.
India is a union consisting of more than 2 dozen ethnic and several racial groups. We have more secessionist groups operating in india than any other state in asia. Nation building(in this part of the world) is a 100+ year process. Our effort has been to keep history "uneventful" with the insurgents as much as possible. We've tried our luck by giving autonomy to secessionists but it has only managed to calm them down a bit but the demand for separate state still exists. We've organized ceasefires. We actually let these insurgents run wild in their own territory as long as they don't step outside their territory. Some of them run a virtual dictatorship(organized crime) by rigging polls though it has managed to keep history "uneventful" for india. Our hope is with the next generation of adults from these regions who have been travelling all across india and the world so we think it'll be more easy for us to talk to rather than their current fathers and grandfathers who had lived in a period where india had just started to understand nation building and our old politicians believed in fist rather than brain. Today's india has changed dramatically. We understand that we have to let some things run its course.
You see, our secessionists don't actually want autonomy. But we imposed autonomy on them anyway to make peace and buy more time. What they really want is a nation that they can call home. They want to feel that they truly belong to this nation. This is true nation building and it is not a 2 or 10 yr process. It takes generations.
What I'm trying to say is that china is several decades behind when it comes to "nation building" - ie incorporating tibets people into china. In fact, I don't see any desire. Pakistan is a nation in-exile so bengalis, balochis or pashtuns never mattered to them in the first place. But what about china? The history between china and tibet has been "eventful" and continues to be "eventful". I'm asking, has history been so "eventful" that it is no longer possible to incorporate tibet into china?
At this point, I look at tibet and china the way I look at pakistan and afghanistan.
Pakistan is in afghanistan because it thinks it will flip
Similarly, china is in tibet too because it thinks it will flip also
The difference is that pakistan controls afghanistan though proxies while china controls tibet through military occupation
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O
Officer of Engineers
Guest
No, China controls Tibet by being Tibet's rice basket and economic life line.
Say what you want about the CCP but the quality of life, life expectancy, and economic future never looked brighter with them than ever under the monks.
Colonel, I'm trying to give you an evaluation of our experiments with dozen different secessionists. We did it for around 50 years. Economics, politics, autonomy etc we done 'em all. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY WANTED!! This realisation has forced us to make drastic(bizarre) changes in our policy.
The problem is that people have not stared at this map for long enough to accurately figure things out
The problem is that people have not stared at this map for long enough to accurately figure things out
O
Officer of Engineers
Guest
Who cares what they want?
That's not the problem. The problem is are they going to do anything about it? So far, the Tibetans ain't doing shit all.
To be fair, that's been more of an Indian central government's tactic. Kashmir elections in 1987 were rigged by the Indian government (which started the Kashmir insurgency in the first place). While, the Punjab government which came to power by over 60% turnout was deposed and in the re-elections held in 1992, the Congress party claimed to "sweep" Punjab's elections with a voter turnout of less than 10%, and the choice to elect only 1 party. :biggrin:
Only hinterland India's history has been "uneventful". Ask anyone living in the periphery states, from the North West to the North East; it's been anything but uneventful.
The problem is that people have not stared at this map for long enough to accurately figure things out
What am I looking at?
ambidex
Banned
That was bad on GoI's part.
That was very bad on GoI's part, no doubt about it.
That worked, isn't it ?
That was great move by GoI. I will always like to see a government 'imposed' this way when hostility is high and boycott of the Union is prevalent. Those who were boycotting are sitting in LA and enjoying the power today. Back to normal.