Australian Census

[tbm3fan]

This is mainly to attract Bigfella and hear what he can say as these stories don't show up that much in US media which is why I read the BBC. Another reason is for a post NOT dealing with China for once.

First the Australian cenus and what it says about the metamorphosis of the country.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-61961744

The results of Australia's five-yearly census have been released, painting a picture of a country undergoing significant change.

The population grew to 25.5 million in the 2021 survey - up 2.1 million from 2016 - and average incomes were slightly higher.

The census also revealed trends that will help shape the country's future. Here are five.
Australia is becoming less religious

For the first time, fewer than half of Australians (44%) identify as Christian, the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) said. Just over 50 years ago, the proportion was about 90%.

Although Christianity remains the biggest religion, it is closely followed by those with no religion at all. That cohort has increased to 39%, up by almost 9%.

Hinduism and Islam are the fastest growing religions in Australia, but each are followed by only around 3% of the population.


But it's also becoming more diverse


Modern Australia has been built on immigration. And now - in another first - more than half of people were born overseas or have a parent who was.

Migration has slowed during the pandemic, but more than a million people have moved to Australia since 2016. Of those, almost a quarter were from India.

India has overtaken China and New Zealand to become the third-largest country of birth, behind Australia and England.

One in five people speak a language other than English at home - most commonly Chinese or Arabic - an increase of almost 800,000 since 2016.
The Indigenous population is larger


The number of people who identified as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander jumped by a quarter from the last census.

Births contributed to the growth but people are also becoming more comfortable with identifying themselves as Indigenous, the ABS says.

Indigenous Australians now number 812,728 - about 3.2% of the population.

The data shows there are 167 active Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander languages, spoken by more than 78,000 people across Australia.

Estimates of Indigenous population size before Europeans arrived in 1788 range from 315,000 to more than one million people. It sharply declined from that point due to new diseases, violence, displacement and dispossession.

Millennials now have the numbers


Another key finding is that Australia is on the cusp of a significant generational shift.

Baby Boomers - those born between 1946 and 1965 - have previously been the country's largest generation. Now Millennials - born between 1981 and 1995 - have caught up.

Each generation accounts for 21.5% of the population.

That's likely to hugely inform policies on issues such as housing and aged care, experts say.
Home ownership is stagnant, but caravans are increasingly popular


A similar share of Australians to 25 years ago are buying houses, but fewer are paying them off.

The number of people with a mortgage has doubled since 1996, with property prices skyrocketing since.

Australian cities now rank among the worst globally for housing affordability, according to a 2022 report.

But the census also revealed that more people are turning to alternative dwellings - something likely spurred on by the pandemic.

The number of caravans - popular with domestic tourists - jumped by 150%. Australians now own 60,000 caravans and almost 30,000 houseboats.

What's a caravan?

I liked this link on the aboriginal cultures. Other that high home prices Australia, and climate change issues, seems like a pretty cool place to me people wise.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-australia-61033360

 

[Gun Grape]

What's a caravan?

I think that's the English word for RV/camper

 

[Monash]

I think that's the English word for RV/camper

Caravan = travel trailer or towed camper (as in where I'll be living next if I ever get divorced.)

 

[Bigfella]

This is mainly to attract Bigfella and hear what he can say as these stories don't show up that much in US media which is why I read the BBC. Another reason is for a post NOT dealing with China for once.

First the Australian cenus and what it says about the metamorphosis of the country.



What's a caravan?

I liked this link on the aboriginal cultures. Other that high home prices Australia, and climate change issues, seems like a pretty cool place to me people wise.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-australia-61033360

I don't have an awful lot to add to that comprehensive article, except to point out that China...... OK, not this time. :tongue:

But seriously....the religion stats have been the biggest news so far from the census. The jump in 'no religion' has been notable, if very much in line with the trend line from the previous census. My observation is that the last generation for whom being actively religious was 'normal' is my parents generation. They were born just prior to the 'postwar baby boom' but are effectively part of that cohort. Both my parents started out life very religious, to the point that they met at a church youth group & worked on church missions overseas. My Dad died a confirmed unbeleiver over 30 years ago & Mum followed a similar path minus the dying. I don't know that many actively religious people from my own generation. They certainly exist, but it is not especially commonplace. Most of the people I know who were brought up religious either don't believe or barely believe. As the 'boomers' die out over the next 20 years religious belief will become a firmly minority position and 'non-belief' will become 'normal'.

My view on that is 'bring it on' I am not intrinsically hostile to belief, and some of the nicest & best people I know are believers. I am fairly hostile to quite a few specific religions or religious practices and I think that the less power they have in my society the better a place it will be. I think that for the most part we are a better society for our decreasing belief in metaphysical beings. I also forsee a time when the legal & financial advantages stil lbeing demanded by religions & their adherents will largely be removed. Fine by me. The Catholic Church is the single largest non-government recipient of government money in Australia and one of the largest non-government employers. It shouldn't have the legal right to sack people for being gay, trans or pregnant outside wedlock and al lwithout paying a cent in tax. Fuck. Right. Off.

My other observation is the transformative nature of Indian immigration. We can partially thank our American cousins for this. Prior to 9/11 America was one of the key destinations for Indians seeking tertiary education or migration. When things tightened up Australia picked up the slack. During the early 2000s I was involved with a cricket club and we noticed the change very quickly. Numbers playing in our leage rose steeply, and we soon recruited a bunch of students through a couple of guys who here just hitting the ball near where we trained. It is now rare to see cricket teams without subcontinental players and it it common to see teams made up entirely of Indians, Pakistanis or Sri Lankans.

Even by the standards of a nation that has a successful history of integratring new migrant groups Indians have slotted in remarkably quickly. It helps that they all speak english with varying degrees of proficiency and have some similar reference points via a shared history of British colonialism. That shared history also means that qualifications from India are more likely to be accepted than from most third world nations. To offer yet another personal example, I work in a white collar job in a team of 16 people (which includes a few casual workers). Over a third of that team are migrants from India or the children of migrants. All of the migrants arrived here in the past 15 years. While that is above average for any given workplace, it does give some indication of how rapidly the change has happened. There are also a whole strata of jobs like cleaning, convenience store clerk, taxi & delivery driving etc. that are now dominated by migrants from the subcontinent. Go to any new housing estate on the suburban fringe and you will see subcontinental faces everywhere staking ut their little part of Australia.

There is no reason to believe this migration will slow down any time soon. Australia is very much a preferred migration destination now for people from the subcontinent. While the cost of living is high, so are wages. We are the closest accessible first world society, there is plenty of space, plenty of jobs and we are fairly safe and politically stable. Also, the Indian government does not pressure its citizens to remain 'loyal' in the way China does, so there is less sense of potential conflict with the new home. I won't pretend that racism isn't an issue here, but fortunately it isn't enough to make us seem unwelcoming and it becomes less an issue as the new generation of kids who grew up here become just one more kid that you went to school with - 'normal' strikes again.

Hope that offers a few insights. Not sure if Monash sees it the same way, but look forward to anything he has to contribute.

 

[tbm3fan]

My view on that is 'bring it on' I am not intrinsically hostile to belief, and some of the nicest & best people I know are believers. I am fairly hostile to quite a few specific religions or religious practices and I think that the less power they have in my society the better a place it will be. I think that for the most part we are a better society for our decreasing belief in metaphysical beings. I also forsee a time when the legal & financial advantages stil lbeing demanded by religions & their adherents will largely be removed. Fine by me. The Catholic Church is the single largest non-government recipient of government money in Australia and one of the largest non-government employers. It shouldn't have the legal right to sack people for being gay, trans or pregnant outside wedlock and al lwithout paying a cent in tax. Fuck. Right. Off.

Pretty much open minded. Now isn't that a refreshing thought?

Agree wholeheartedly concerning religion only here it seems as though religion has seen a resurgence in aggressiveness. Here, they are not satisfied practicing their religion but now seem to want even more to force it upon all others. Nonetheless, they are all hypocrites in the end. Take they coach who has been allowed by the Supreme Court to be able to keel at midfield after a game to say a prayer. Now taking in that particular community and image one or two Jewish students wanting to do the same after a game? Yep, imagine that and the uproar by said community. As I know religion is free in this country if it is a Christian religion.

Frankly if I were asked to name my top five countries that I would consider worthwhile to live and and feel safe the US is #5 today.

 

[Bigfella]

Pretty much open minded. Now isn't that a refreshing thought?

Agree wholeheartedly concerning religion only here it seems as though religion has seen a resurgence in aggressiveness. Here, they are not satisfied practicing their religion but now seem to want even more to force it upon all others. Nonetheless, they are all hypocrites in the end. Take they coach who has been allowed by the Supreme Court to be able to keel at midfield after a game to say a prayer. Now taking in that particular community and image one or two Jewish students wanting to do the same after a game? Yep, imagine that and the uproar by said community. As I know religion is free in this country if it is a Christian religion.

Frankly if I were asked to name my top five countries that I would consider worthwhile to live and and feel safe the US is #5 today.

We have some of the same aggressively religious folk here. Our recently removed & unlamented PM was one, and they have an outsized influence in our major right wing party. However, we have an electoral system that allows voters to punish such extremism fairly easily, and the actual number of voters who support it is not large enough to make translating those ideas into laws easy.

BTW, if you are looking to change location you are welcome here. Safe, secular & sane. :smile:

 

[Officer of Engineers]

BTW, if you are looking to change location you are welcome here. Safe, secular & sane. :smile:

10 types of venomous snakes, salt water crocs, poisonous spiders, drop bears, and sheilas ... and let's not forget the only bird who won a war against your army.

 

[Monash]

... and let's not forget the only bird who won a war against your army.

A truce was declared with neither side making any concessions. I refute any claim that the people of Australia were ever defeated by our avian bothers & sisters. As far as Emus go Australia is officially co-dominion. End of story.

 

[Monash]

..... Hope that offers a few insights. Not sure if Monash sees it the same way, but look forward to anything he has to contribute.

For the most part part I tend to agree with BF. On immigration I have some reservations about the quality of the credentials some would-be immigrants from the sub-continent (and elsewhere) use to gain entry to Australia via skilled immigration (and refugee) categories but that's largely based on my experience dealing migration fraud in general (not specifically India) plus various reports I have read about corruption in the Indian and other education systems. So I tend to be in favor of rigorous policing/vetting of immigration applications. I would also dearly like a longer residency period to (say 10 years) for everyone with the same status applying to children born to non-citizens while still residents. Point being I would love to kick out more of the people who commit serious violent, sexual or organized criminal offenses after arriving here and before they get citizenship. (But that's just me.) As a whole the immigration system we have does a reasonable job. Successive waves of immigrants from different continents have all by and large integrated successfully with Australia being a better place for it.

On the religious side of things I possibly differ from BF by bit more but not I think too much. I largely concur with his views re; firing someone based on their sexuality, religious beliefs of lack there of etc but.... To use a very crude analogy I have some sympathy for an employer running say a burger joint who has say hired a vegan who then commences to chastise customers over their choice of meals. Being vegan and doing your job? No probs. Same with identifying as vegan. Proselytizing veganism while on duty??? At what point does that cross a line where the employer can intervene?

Now there may already be an answer to this question in employment law but since I'm not an expert I don't know. So on that subject I think its sort of a gray area and it would be nice to have some clear idea on where the line is drawn. Problem is this whole question is one of those tinderbox issues where even suggesting guidelines draws immediate accusations of discrimination. Not sure how I'd solve it.

 

[Bigfella]

10 types of venomous snakes, salt water crocs, poisonous spiders, drop bears, and sheilas ... and let's not forget the only bird who won a war against your army.

Ten? Are you trying to insult me sir? Would you like me to start discussing Justin or....her.....? I will have you know we have something like 100 species of venomous snakes! We only talk about a handful of those because we are a modest people. Don't like to boast.

As for those Emus, we signed a treaty & incorporated them into our military in the same way the English did with Gurkas. Imagine a squad of fast moving birds that can live off the land, blend in and fire a javelin at any tank in range. They are first line defence units if anyone is ever dumb enough to invade. :tongue:

 

[Bigfella]

For the most part part I tend to agree with BF. On immigration I have some reservations about the quality of the credentials some would-be immigrants from the sub-continent (and elsewhere) use to gain entry to Australia via skilled immigration (and refugee) categories but that's largely based on my experience dealing migration fraud in general (not specifically India) plus various reports I have read about corruption in the Indian and other education systems. So I tend to be in favor of rigorous policing/vetting of immigration applications.

No disagreement there. The issue of qualifications has long been a messy and inconsistent one. Some qualifications that should be accepted are not & some that shouldn't be are. I work with a Chilean lady who is a trained & experienced vet. To practice here she needs to do a two year bridging course which is not cheap and very time consuming, meaning she would struggle to work while doing it. Pity, she would be a great vet.

I would also dearly like a longer residency period to (say 10 years) for everyone with the same status applying to children born to non-citizens while still residents. Point being I would love to kick out more of the people who commit serious violent, sexual or organized criminal offenses after arriving here and before they get citizenship. (But that's just me.)

We are going to disagree on this one. Feels like hammer to crack a walnut.

As a whole the immigration system we have does a reasonable job. Successive waves of immigrants from different continents have all by and large integrated successfully with Australia being a better place for it.

Agreed.

On the religious side of things I possibly differ from BF by bit more but not I think too much. I largely concur with his views re; firing someone based on their sexuality, religious beliefs of lack there of etc but.... To use a very crude analogy I have some sympathy for an employer running say a burger joint who has say hired a vegan who then commences to chastise customers over their choice of meals. Being vegan and doing your job? No probs. Same with identifying as vegan. Proselytizing veganism while on duty??? At what point does that cross a line where the employer can intervene?

Now there may already be an answer to this question in employment law but since I'm not an expert I don't know. So on that subject I think its sort of a gray area and it would be nice to have some clear idea on where the line is drawn. Problem is this whole question is one of those tinderbox issues where even suggesting guidelines draws immediate accusations of discrimination. Not sure how I'd solve it.

Situations like this can already be dealt with under existing employment laws. Protections for workers are remarkably thin and you can be sacked pretty easily, especially for the sort of thing you are talking about.

Businesses run by religions don't need special laws to make it even easier to fire people just because they are in a category of people the church doesn't like. And make no mistake, that is what is being demanded. They want the right to fire employees or expel school children because they are gay or trans. I have a freind who has been knocked back for music teaching jobs because he is athiest - it was made plain to him that was the reason. It is especially galling when some of those employers rely on government money for well over half their funding.

 

[Bigfella]

Just an observation on religion in public life that might help our American friends get some insight. Australia has has multiple PMs who were professed athiests or agnostics. By one estimate six of our 31 PMs have been in that category, including our leaders during both world wars. Of the six, one is generally considered our greatest PM (Curtin) and another three would be in the conversation for top five best/most important (Hawke, Whitlam, Hughes). While most of these were from the left of politics (at some point at least), there have been PMs or party leaders from the right who were athiest/agnostic and a larger number whose belief was more nominal than observant.

Without getting into a detailed political history, the point is that religiosity (and Christianity) has not been a requirement for high office in Australia and for large stretches of time not a feature of political life at the top. We have a different political culture.

 

[Monash]

We are going to disagree on this one. Feels like hammer to crack a walnut.

Possibly, but then as I've mentioned from time to time I was employed in the 'walnut cracking' industry for most of my working life so I tend to believe I have a marginally better understanding than most people of the scale of the problem, particularity the organized crime part, given the fact many of the persons of interest involved in those kind of activities never see a trial.

Situations like this can already be dealt with under existing employment laws. Protections for workers are remarkably thin and you can be sacked pretty easily, especially for the sort of thing you are talking about.

Businesses run by religions don't need special laws to make it even easier to fire people just because they are in a category of people the church doesn't like. And make no mistake, that is what is being demanded. They want the right to fire employees or expel school children because they are gay or trans. I have a freind who has been knocked back for music teaching jobs because he is athiest - it was made plain to him that was the reason. It is especially galling when some of those employers rely on government money for well over half their funding.

As I stated and in my example I don't necessarily regard your friends atheism per se as grounds for not obtaining that job. Nor would I regard casually admitting to holding atheistic beliefs in a private conversation as grounds. My example more or less summarized the conditions where it might well be an issue i.e. deciding to 'evangelize' his/her beliefs at work once employed.

I'm sure you can perceive the dilemma that situation would pose. However rare it might be it would create create problems for employers be they religious or not. As I said vegan butchers.

 

[Bigfella]

As I stated and in my example I don't necessarily regard your friends atheism per se as grounds for not obtaining that job. Nor would I regard casually admitting to holding atheistic beliefs in a private conversation as grounds. My example more or less summarized the conditions where it might well be an issue i.e. deciding to 'evangelize' his/her beliefs at work once employed.

I'm sure you can perceive the dilemma that situation would pose. However rare it might be it would create create problems for employers be they religious or not. As I said vegan butchers.

My point was that your scenario is already covered by existing employment laws. Employers can and will sack you for the sort of behaviour you describe and much less, so there isn't a special dilemma for church run businesses. In fact, church run businesses can even avoid the scenario you envisage by asking potential employees their beliefs and refusing to hire them accordingly. This would be illegal for other, tax paying businesses. Additionally, churches already have MUCH greater scope to sack than regular employers and they want more. They are effectively beyond the reach of most anti-discrimination laws and they want to be beyond the reach of all of them. None of that is required to deal with the sort of situation you outline, but it is required to discriminate against people they don't agree with.

To pick an example I am familair with, if I started evangelizing to the clients my business deals with the best case scenario is that I get an official warning and sacked if repeated. More likely I get sacked. A member of my team senior to me actually did get sacked for saying the wrong thing to a client. One phone call from the boss to HR & she was walked out with her stuff in a box.

 

[Monash]

To pick an example I am familair with, if I started evangelizing to the clients my business deals with the best case scenario is that I get an official warning and sacked if repeated. More likely I get sacked. A member of my team senior to me actually did get sacked for saying the wrong thing to a client. One phone call from the boss to HR & she was walked out with her stuff in a box.

BF you may well be right, the question remains in that case would you have grounds for claiming discrimination? In general the answer would I believe be no. But were you a teacher? As I said its a very narrow set of circumstances where I have questions. Not overwhelming concerns, just questions.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

A truce was declared with neither side making any concessions. I refute any claim that the people of Australia were ever defeated by our avian bothers & sisters. As far as Emus go Australia is officially co-dominion. End of story.

Ten? Are you trying to insult me sir? Would you like me to start discussing Justin or....her.....? I will have you know we have something like 100 species of venomous snakes! We only talk about a handful of those because we are a modest people. Don't like to boast.

As for those Emus, we signed a treaty & incorporated them into our military in the same way the English did with Gurkas. Imagine a squad of fast moving birds that can live off the land, blend in and fire a javelin at any tank in range. They are first line defence units if anyone is ever dumb enough to invade. :tongue:

I'm not the one trying to convince TBM to move to my home country. There's a reason why Australia was a penal colony. Only the most blood thirsty cutthroats, cheats even have a chance against the wildlife and at best, even the most devious criminal minded can call it even against bird brain dinosaurs ... and no one even dared to challenge the drop bears. Straight evolution living in Australia has even produced the most dread MAN has ever known - Sheilas.

I'm not even going to try to convince TBM to move to Canada. He's way too smart for that. It's too cold here.

 

[tbm3fan]

10 types of venomous snakes, salt water crocs, poisonous spiders, drop bears, and sheilas ... and let's not forget the only bird who won a war against your army.

I don't know about the first four but that last threat I can evade by importing. I do have several friends living in Australia now who I met in the Philippines back in the 90s. They are all married to a Filipina they had met during that time.

As for your Canada you are right and that would hold true for two of the other countries. Cold and snow. I have this Canadian patient, funny as hell aren't they all , who I have learned was born and raised in Regina. Sounds like a very fun place although I'll stay partial to British Vancouver but then there are clouds.

At the moment, though, I am fortunate enough to live in California, the Bay Area to be exact. If California really wanted to sock it to those marginal red states, who depend on California's 5th largest economy in the world for government handouts, we could secede and watch them howl. I'm pretty sure Washington, Oregon, and Hawaii would partner with us. That's the whole west coast.

For those that don't know the Governor of California is running a 30 second televised ad in Florida today, July 4th, only. In it he goes after DeSantis and his ilk about Floridians losing their freedoms which are more than alive and well in California.

 

[Monash]

.......There's a reason why Australia was a penal colony. Only the most blood thirsty cutthroats, cheats even have a chance against the wildlife and at best, even the most devious criminal minded can call it even against bird brain dinosaurs ... and no one even dared to challenge the drop bears. Straight evolution living in Australia has even produced the most dread MAN has ever known - Sheilas.

I'm not even going to try to convince TBM to move to Canada. He's way too smart for that. It's too cold here.

Err Kodiak bears, mountain lions, ice hockey, hostile foreigners on its borders (Quebecans). Canada has its dangers to you know.

 

[tbm3fan]

Err Kodiak bears, mountain lions, ice hockey, hostile foreigners on its borders (Quebecans). Canada has its dangers to you know.

That may not be the only hostile border nowadays...

 

[Bigfella]

This might be of interest on the issue of migration.

A few quick points (the article is worth reading in full):

*48% of Australians have at least one parent born overseas
*There are a number of suburbs in Sydney and Melbourne with populations (20 or more people) from 80+ nations.
*Indians & Chinese are the largest or among the largest migrant groups in these suburbs.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07...ultural-diversity-census-point-cook/101200006