.41 Magnum

RustyBattleship

RustyBattleship

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I was watching a show of Magnum (named) firearms on the History Channel the other day. It was a rerun (I first caught it on the itsy bitsy TV in my hospital room last year).

It goes into a big deal on the .44 magnum and how its popularity grew almost exponentially after Clint Eastwood made his "Dirty Harry" movies (though .44 magnums in both double and single actions had been around for some time).

Earlier the show touched on the .357 magnum that was needed to replace the .38 special (though most police departments do NOT issue anything other than a .38 special - at least I know Long Beach doesn't).

But not a darn word was said about the .41 magnum. If I recall the ballistic tables correctly, the .41 has more penetrating power than the .44 though the latter has more "stopping" power. While I was still in the gun shop business back in the late 70's, my wife bought me a Ruger SA in .41 magnum to take with us when we camped out on our vacant land in Oregon (found bear tracks there the first time up and all I had were wad-cutters in my .45 ACP for rattlesnakes. Then the Indians told me there were NO rattlers in that corner created by the intersection of the Sycan and Sprague Rivers).

Anyway, just thought I'd ask what you folks thought of the .41 magnum.
 
gunnut said:
The 41 sounds like an answer to a question no one ever asked. It's too big to be in the small/medium category, but too small to really pack the punch of a large pistol.
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Actually I found the recoil (with the SJ full power bullets) just about the same as with a .44 magnum. Because of its slightly greater penetrating power, I felt very confident with it on my side should a bulky bear with a thick skull decide that I was the intruder.

And with its 7 1/2" barrel, it LOOKS like a big gun and really is (Ruger used the same frame as with their original .44s).
 
The .41 is a true magnum and a real hotrod. It has the velocity, penetration, and recoil to match.
 
Yeah but sometimes you don't want a hot round. Sometimes you want bullet weight.

The 9mm Lugar has more penetration and much higher velocity than the 45 ACP, but it's not a man-stopper. Our guys in Iraq have complained that 9mm just doesn't put a man down while the 45 knocks him on his butt.

I personally like the 9mm and 357 mag over the 45. But that's because I'm weak and feable and unable to control the recoil of a 45 ACP. Besides, I believe in "volume" of fire to compensate for low bullet weight per shot. :biggrin:
 
There is no such thing as a 'manstopper'.

Bullets do not 'knock' people over, not even 12 gauge slugs.

Kinetic energy is a a function of mass times velocity squared. Double mass, and you double KE, however, double velocity, and you square KE.
 
There could be over penetration. Ideally we want the bullet to stay in the target. But too much velocity will carry the bullet straight through unless it encounters a bone. This is why I don't think 5.7x28 will take off against unarmored targets.

I don't doubt the power of a 41 mag, but over penetration could be an issue.
 
'Overpenetration' is good in a battlefield or hunting weapon. 'Overpenetration' means an exit wound, more blood loss(quicker loss of conciousness and easier tracking), and twice the chance of infection.

It's only in civilian applications that it is problematic.
 
gunnut said:
Yeah but sometimes you don't want a hot round. Sometimes you want bullet weight.

Ah, that's what I liked about the commercial ammo that was offered for the .41 magnum. You had an all lead loaded to under magnum velocities for general stopping power of medium weight game (deer, cougar, house intruder, etc.). Then you could buy the "hot" ammo of Semi-Jacketed rounds that would take out the Abominable Snowman.

I personally like the 9mm and 357 mag over the 45. But that's because I'm weak and feable and unable to control the recoil of a 45 ACP. Besides, I believe in "volume" of fire to compensate for low bullet weight per shot. :biggrin:
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Weak and feeble my donkey. At the Los Alamitos Police Pistol training class for WOMEN (my wife took the course also), we saw a pretty and petite lady no more than 5-foot tall and MAYBE 90 lbs take on a S&W .44 Magnum. Each shot would send her stepping backwards a couple of steps but each time she moved back up to the line. After she fired her 5 rounds she looked over at the Police instructor and the NRA advisor with a big grin on her face and asked, "Can I do this again?"


"Man (or petite woman) over machine". That's what it's all about.
 
M21Sniper said:
'Overpenetration' is good in a battlefield or hunting weapon. 'Overpenetration' means an exit wound, more blood loss(quicker loss of conciousness and easier tracking), and twice the chance of infection.

It's only in civilian applications that it is problematic.
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I guess I've been reading too much of the liberal gun propaganda. Generally civilian users don't want the round to go through the bad guy, the dry wall, the glass door, and then kill the lady on the sofa watching Wheel of Fortune.

Good thing I'm sticking with my 9mm and 357 mag despite the "overpenetration" problem.
 
High Guys,

I do not currently own a .41 Magnum but have in the past.

The thing with the .41 Mag is that it was designed from the ground up as a magnum, not a stretch job on an existing, lower pressure cartridge. This makes it a bit more of an efficient propostion.

What was inefficient about the .41 Magnum was the choice of guns when it came out: they were just too flipping big and heavy. I owned a pair of Model 58 S & Ws for awhile and they are just a bit of a burden. I am six foot and 180 pounds and have carried N frame revolvers concealed so I am no stranger to big guns.

IIRC, the guys that conceived the .41 Magnum were thinking along the lines of a holster gun with a frame along the lines of Colt's I frame. Smith & Wesson's L frame would probably make a nice .41 Magnum if there were enough interest.

S & Ws new Model 21 might make an acceptable, reasonably portable weapon were it chambered in .41 Mag. N frames with heavy and/or lugged pipes are a pain in the ass as far as I am concerned.

Depending upon what is out there in molds, a heavy for calilber bullet in a .41 Mag--say something like a 250 grain Keith style semi wadcutter cast as hard as can be--would probably make a sweet hunting load.

Regards,

William
 
gunnut said:
I guess I've been reading too much of the liberal gun propaganda. Generally civilian users don't want the round to go through the bad guy, the dry wall, the glass door, and then kill the lady on the sofa watching Wheel of Fortune.

Good thing I'm sticking with my 9mm and 357 mag despite the "overpenetration" problem.
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In civilian apps overpenetration is a real problem. In military and hunting aps, there is really no such animal.
 
M21Sniper said:
In civilian apps overpenetration is a real problem. In military and hunting aps, there is really no such animal.
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Ah yes, I'm a big fan of "if brute force is not doing the job for you, you aren't using enough" also. :)

But you are right, and that's why I switched from a loaded mini-14 to a pump shotgun for home defense.
 
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I used to have a 4" Model 57 Smith in .41 mag. It was without a doubt one of the very best shooting revolvers I have ever owned. Personally I think it's an excellent round, very good for all 2 legged and most 4 legged predators.

The only down side, imo, is that there is no "41 Special", so low power rounds are not really available, though you can buy Blazers or something like that for plinking.

But all in all, it's an excellent caliber, a little faster and flatter than a .44 and just as much energy. Although I think an "L" Frame would be a little fragile for the .41 if you planned to shoot it a lot, as the cyl. wall would be pretty dang thin.

edit to add: Lol, I had to call my brother, apparently I still have the M57! :)
 
highsea said:
The only down side, imo, is that there is no "41 Special", so low power rounds are not really available, though you can buy Blazers or something like that for plinking.
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Well, my gun cabinet is about 24 inches behind my left shoulder so it was no trouble for me to swivel my chair around and take out a couple of boxes of .41 magnums. One is the Remington 210 grain SOFT POINT (half-jacketed). That's the hot one. The other is Peters 210 grain LEAD. That's the lower powered round that would be roughly equivilent to a .41 "Special". I don't have the ballistic tables on the difference between them. But having fired both from my Ruger Blackhawk, I can pretty well guess from the difference in recoil.

I haven't checked the gun shops lately to see if they still carry .41 magnum ammo of two different bullets and speeds. If not, they should.
 
RustyBattleship said:
Well, my gun cabinet is about 24 inches behind my left shoulder so it was no trouble for me to swivel my chair around and take out a couple of boxes of .41 magnums. One is the Remington 210 grain SOFT POINT (half-jacketed). That's the hot one. The other is Peters 210 grain LEAD. That's the lower powered round that would be roughly equivilent to a .41 "Special". I don't have the ballistic tables on the difference between them. But having fired both from my Ruger Blackhawk, I can pretty well guess from the difference in recoil.

I haven't checked the gun shops lately to see if they still carry .41 magnum ammo of two different bullets and speeds. If not, they should.
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Most gun shops carry all kinds of ammo...whether they reorder it regulary or have some dusty boxes laying around..for sure like, 90% or all gun stores have a box or two of 41mag ammo. I'd like to get my hands on a Desert Eagle 41 mag. Not very many in my area around.
 
Lol, I shouldn't have said not available, as I mentioned you can get blazers for plinking. But you will still pay "magnum" prices accordingly.

With .357's and .44's, you can buy .38 or .44 specials for plinking rounds. So even the low power .41 magnums are still considerably pricier than say a box of .44 special wadcutters. With a little experimenting, you can find a special load that will shoot the same POI as your carry load.

But the .41 is a great round, and I do prefer it over the .44, even if it costs a little more to shoot. BTW, my carry round was the 175gr. Silvertip, and my practice rounds were 200 gr. CCI Blazers, since I didn't reload the .41. IIRC the POI for the Blazers was about 2" low at 25 yards compared to the Silvertip.
 
I have an old Model 58 M&P

I have an old Model 58 M&P

RustyBattleship said:
I was watching a show of Magnum (named) firearms on the History Channel the other day. It was a rerun (I first caught it on the itsy bitsy TV in my hospital room last year).

It goes into a big deal on the .44 magnum and how its popularity grew almost exponentially after Clint Eastwood made his "Dirty Harry" movies (though .44 magnums in both double and single actions had been around for some time).

Earlier the show touched on the .357 magnum that was needed to replace the .38 special (though most police departments do NOT issue anything other than a .38 special - at least I know Long Beach doesn't).

But not a darn word was said about the .41 magnum. If I recall the ballistic tables correctly, the .41 has more penetrating power than the .44 though the latter has more "stopping" power. While I was still in the gun shop business back in the late 70's, my wife bought me a Ruger SA in .41 magnum to take with us when we camped out on our vacant land in Oregon (found bear tracks there the first time up and all I had were wad-cutters in my .45 ACP for rattlesnakes. Then the Indians told me there were NO rattlers in that corner created by the intersection of the Sycan and Sprague Rivers).

Anyway, just thought I'd ask what you folks thought of the .41 magnum.
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Back in the 60s this was being marketed as the ultimate police cartridge. Recoil shy cops quickly rejected it and it evolved into a pretty nice hunting round. I've taken black bear and white tails with my 4 inch fixed sight Model 58. Winchester used to make a nice 175 grain silver tip in .41 mag. the M-58 was most comfortable to shoot with this load. But I used 220 grain semi jacketed hollow points for bear. Rubber Pachs are a needed addition unless you like abuse. The stock service grips are just plain painful to shoot with. I can see why cops who were not aware of rubber grips not long on the market at the time would refuse to carry it. I do not shoot it much these days but keep it because it is just an awsome little revolver. I believe a Police Dept. in Texas is the only dept. to use it for any real length of time. I cannot remember which Dept. it was though.

thats my nickel
 
highsea said:
I used to have a 4" Model 57 Smith in .41 mag. It was without a doubt one of the very best shooting revolvers I have ever owned. Personally I think it's an excellent round, very good for all 2 legged and most 4 legged predators.

The only down side, imo, is that there is no "41 Special", so low power rounds are not really available, though you can buy Blazers or something like that for plinking.

But all in all, it's an excellent caliber, a little faster and flatter than a .44 and just as much energy. Although I think an "L" Frame would be a little fragile for the .41 if you planned to shoot it a lot, as the cyl. wall would be pretty dang thin.

edit to add: Lol, I had to call my brother, apparently I still have the M57! :)

I saw a custom Colt Python in .41 magnum back in the early 90s. it had a non fluted 5 shot cylnder. The guy that had it claimed it cost him over 2,500 dollars US plus his NEW Colt Python. It was refinished in a rather ugly ( by Colt Python standards anyway ) parkerized grey green. The guy claimed he had never shot it. Personally if I drop that kind of money on a piece like that I'm going to shoot the heck out of it. Obviously reworked for hard times the guy would'nt even let me cycle the action. He flipped when I opened the cylinder. It was quite abit of work though. The gunsmith that did it was somewhere in Michigan I do not remember his name. I bring this up only because of your reference to the S&W L frame. The I-frame Colts are similar in size.
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Johnekgun said:
I saw a custom Colt Python in .41 magnum back in the early 90s. it had a non fluted 5 shot cylnder. ...I bring this up only because of your reference to the S&W L frame. The I-frame Colts are similar in size.
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Python actions are pretty fragile too, but smooth as hell with the double hand. It must have been a b*tch to rework it for 5 shots. Normally you won't get much additional strength with an unfluted cylinder- a 5-shot would give enough meat between holes, but still pretty damn thin at the edges.

I have a S&W N-Frame with an unfluted cyl. and a 5" barrel in .45LC. Also never fired, I bought it when S&W was making lots of short-run "customs". I liked the balance of the 5" barrel. Even with the unfluted cyl, it's not that great for +P or heavy loads like a Blackhawk would be though, just because of the cylinder walls.

It's not that attractive either, lol.
 

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highsea said:
Python actions are pretty fragile too, but smooth as hell with the double hand. It must have been a b*tch to rework it for 5 shots. Normally you won't get much additional strength with an unfluted cylinder- a 5-shot would give enough meat between holes, but still pretty damn thin at the edges.

I have a S&W N-Frame with an unfluted cyl. and a 5" barrel in .45LC. Also never fired, I bought it when S&W was making lots of short-run "customs". I liked the balance of the 5" barrel. Even with the unfluted cyl, it's not that great for +P or heavy loads like a Blackhawk would be though, just because of the cylinder walls.

It's not that attractive either, lol.
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Yeah I totally agree the Python has a weak action by modern standards. It did have some very thin cylinder walls in my opinion. The owner claimed it was specially hardened and made from a better steel ... Bla Bla Bla. But he would NOT let me shoot it or even cycle the action. Pity I would have loved to check out the guys work. For sure the smith had his work cut out for him with the hand and bolt timing. I Imagine a little old man with a kind face swearing to beat the band over his work bench LOL. I'm sure the fluting was absent becuase of price not strength. The roll marks on the barrel still read "PYTHON 357" All in all a really different looking Python though. Made for work alledgedly but doomed to be a safe queen I fear. Sigh.... oh well its not mine. 5 inch Smiths do have a curiously comfortable balance even the pre-war .38 M&Ps did. Those N frame custom runs are all neat looking. I had a Classic Hunter 657 with a 7 inch barrel. Had to carry it in a Thompson-Center Contender bag because I was too cheap to buy a holster that would fit it. It was really too front heavy for me.
 
In the 1960's a retired Border Patrol Agent named Bill Jordan advocated the .41 magnum as the "ideal" police round. It was supposed to be a good compromise, more powerful than the .357 and more controllable than the .44. For some reason the concept never took off until auto pistols became standard.

These days the .40 S&W is probably the most widely used police round in the nation. A chief or sheriff that can't hope to win the 9mm v .45ACP argument in his department can pick the .40 S&W. Even if it's not anyone's first choice, both sides of the neverending ballistic argument seem to be able to live with it, and have confidence in it.
 
M21Sniper said:
There is no such thing as a 'manstopper'.

Bullets do not 'knock' people over, not even 12 gauge slugs.

Kinetic energy is a a function of mass times velocity squared. Double mass, and you double KE, however, double velocity, and you square KE.
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LOL yeah i was watcing an episode of Mythbusters. And the myth they were trying to bust, was if it is possible to knock a person off there feet with a gun.

What they did was tie a pig to this contraption, the pig weighed as much as an average human. They tried a bunch of handguns, nothing..the pig barly moved, they tried a 12gage shotgun...moved a little, but not enough that it would knock a man into the air.
They then tried some automatic fire, still nothing. Then they went all out with a bunch of guns at once....still nothing.

The reasoning they said is that, for someone to be blown off there feet when shot, the person who is shooting will also have to be blown off there feet.
 
I like it in movies where a guy is shot by a 9mm handgun and is blown back as if he was hit by a tank cannon. :biggrin:
 
gunnut said:
There could be over penetration. Ideally we want the bullet to stay in the target. But too much velocity will carry the bullet straight through unless it encounters a bone. This is why I don't think 5.7x28 will take off against unarmored targets.

I don't doubt the power of a 41 mag, but over penetration could be an issue.
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Just for clarification, there is a point where velocity increases actually reduce penetration.

The mythbusters episode(those guys again, hehe) where they were firing weapons underwater covered this really well, and was pretty entertaining to boot. Those guys are friggin' gun nuts, lolol.
 
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Another problem of high-velocity rounds is their tendency to shatter when hitting a hard target without penetrating hardly at all. The 7mm Remington Magnum is an example. Many safari guides in Africa will NOT let hunters use the 7mm Mag against the tough-skinned and -boned game that they hunt.
 
If you read stories of classic African hunting, Hemingway for example, it seems that the .30-06 was a favorite of many for plains game. With 220 grain bullets.

I think that does "only" about 2400 fps.

Eat your heart out Roy Weatherby.
 
M21Sniper said:
Just for clarification, there is a point where velocity increases actually reduce penetration.
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For penetrating dense material I'm guessing it's better to with more mass rather than more velocity. A harpoon performs a similar function to a bullet, just underwater, yet is significantly slower and heavier. Probably also why the Big BLU will be more effective than ICBM penetrators.
 
Rifleman said:
If you read stories of classic African hunting, Hemingway for example, it seems that the .30-06 was a favorite of many for plains game. With 220 grain bullets.

I think that does "only" about 2400 fps.

Eat your heart out Roy Weatherby.
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My dad used a .30-06, but with 180gr Federal Nosler Partition bullets.

I'm not much of a .30-06 guy, mainly because everybody and their mother uses it.
 
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