dundonrl
New member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2007
- Messages
- 705
I'd imagine a C17 Globemaster III would have NO problems putting a Tallboy into it's cargo bay and having it pulled out like they do with the MOAB..
16-in Guns vs Hard Targets : A Reality Check
- Thread starter Shipwreck
- Start date
I'd imagine a C17 Globemaster III would have NO problems putting a Tallboy into it's cargo bay and having it pulled out like they do with the MOAB..
MattR
New member
Very interesting read !!! 
Gun Grape
Resident Curmudgeon
No one gets in before the dead chick this time
YellowFever
Idiot Mode [ON] OFF
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2006
- Messages
- 6,094
Tsk tsk......
YellowFever
Idiot Mode [ON] OFF
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2006
- Messages
- 6,094
Mark this date on your calender!!
First time in a long while the Gunny got off his ass and did his job. :biggrin:
Gun Grape
Resident Curmudgeon
The thread is over 3 years old.
Matt I see what the problem is
Matt I see what the problem is
bigross86
Staff Emeritus, Military Professional, Mostly Harm
Way to go, Gunny!!!
USSWisconsin
In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast
Now thats a broadside to bring the fleet to its knees...
But seriously - bringing this back to the top this thread was worthy of a kitten - I can remember when shipwreck went on a posting frenzy and laid out some interesting stuff here - still nothing was added, so necrophilia was done - and here I am going for more of the same - oh the felinity!
But seriously - bringing this back to the top this thread was worthy of a kitten - I can remember when shipwreck went on a posting frenzy and laid out some interesting stuff here - still nothing was added, so necrophilia was done - and here I am going for more of the same - oh the felinity!
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Dreadnought
New member
It was picked and chosen nothing more. There is plenty of information available that would refute it beyond question.
However, the Gunny was just and correct in calling his kittens and Lady of the night to Necro Feast.
However, the Gunny was just and correct in calling his kittens and Lady of the night to Necro Feast.
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USSWisconsin
In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast
I agree - it is a one sided presentation, but generally taken from primary source info. It definately presents an anti NGFS perspective by using selected quotes and citations, however I find it useful as an addendum and insight into the arguments that have prevailed on eliminating large caliber (8" and up) NGFS from our Navy. It also points out interesting some sources (that it was taken from) and details some less effective applications of NGFS, which could be studied along with successful cases to better understand what works and what doesn't.
And yes, that was an archtypical necropost - Thank You Gunny - for doing what needed to be done.
Gun Grape
Resident Curmudgeon
Nothing he posted was false. All well documented.
No need to beat that dead horse again though
He got run off anyway:frown:
No need to beat that dead horse again though
He got run off anyway:frown:
Stitch
New member
I was GONNA say "Where are the kittens?", but . . . . . . .
Hey, besides, you GOTTA have a necropost every once in a while just to keep things interesting, eh?
Hey, besides, you GOTTA have a necropost every once in a while just to keep things interesting, eh?
Dreadnought
New member
Gunny, He didnt post false, That I give you. But refutable no less. That i gave him.
Aaaahhh!
It's nice to see that Gunny is in the right holiday spirit!!!
Perhaps for the season he could have his necroposts be the ghosts of past, present & future!!!
It's nice to see that Gunny is in the right holiday spirit!!!
Perhaps for the season he could have his necroposts be the ghosts of past, present & future!!!
Saint-Mandrier Battery, Operation Dragoon, August 1944
Saint-Mandrier Battery, Operation Dragoon, August 1944
I appreciate it is an old thread, but it is well researched and the information posted is both accurate and interesting. I therefore believe it's worth adding further details as they emerge.
In addition to the information provided in posts #71, #72 and #73, I'd offer a summary of the action of USS Nevada against Saint-Mandrier Battery based on the "Report of Action of USS Nevada from 1730 on 15 August 1944, to 2000 25 August 1944, Operation [Anvil/Dragoon, redacted in the document] Southern Coast of France” for 23 August, the only day Nevada fired at this battery:
Saint-Mandrier Battery, Operation Dragoon, August 1944
I appreciate it is an old thread, but it is well researched and the information posted is both accurate and interesting. I therefore believe it's worth adding further details as they emerge.
In addition to the information provided in posts #71, #72 and #73, I'd offer a summary of the action of USS Nevada against Saint-Mandrier Battery based on the "Report of Action of USS Nevada from 1730 on 15 August 1944, to 2000 25 August 1944, Operation [Anvil/Dragoon, redacted in the document] Southern Coast of France” for 23 August, the only day Nevada fired at this battery:
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Saint-Mandrier Battery, Operation Dragoon, August 1944
Saint-Mandrier Battery, Operation Dragoon, August 1944
Additional details on the design of the battery :
1) Following the cancellation of the Nomandie-class battleships in 1922, the 340mm Model 1912 guns were used for coastal artillery, railway artillery or spares for the Bretagne-class battleships.
2) The gunhouses of the Saint-Mandrier battery were designed specifically for coastal defense purposes. Special attention was given to roof armor plates (270mm thick) to provide adequate protection against plunging fire and/or air bombardment. As a result, the rotating structure (@ 1,500 metric tons) was twice heavier than naval twin turrets of similar caliber.
3) After the need to engage targets at long range was confirmed by the examination of the Austrian Prinz Eugen battleship surrendered to France at the end of WW1, it was decided to give the guns an unusual +50 degrees elevation, providing a maximum range of 38,749 yards (35,432 meters) with the 1,268-lb Model 1924 AP shell.
4) Construction of the battery started in 1928 and was completed in 1934-1935. Turret C (K-20 for the Germans) was built 42 meters above water level and Turret F (K-21 for the Germans) was built 60 meters above water level. Each turret was installed on a two-level underground foundation. Level 1 was 8.5 meters underground, and was protected by a 5-meter thick reinforced concrete roof and 5-meter thick reinforced concrete side walls. Level 2 was 13.0 meters underground, and was protected by a 1-meter thick reinforced concrete roof. Both levels were 3.5 meters high.
5) The turrets were located 400 meters apart and were connected together by a tunnel.
Saint-Mandrier Battery, Operation Dragoon, August 1944
Additional details on the design of the battery :
1) Following the cancellation of the Nomandie-class battleships in 1922, the 340mm Model 1912 guns were used for coastal artillery, railway artillery or spares for the Bretagne-class battleships.
2) The gunhouses of the Saint-Mandrier battery were designed specifically for coastal defense purposes. Special attention was given to roof armor plates (270mm thick) to provide adequate protection against plunging fire and/or air bombardment. As a result, the rotating structure (@ 1,500 metric tons) was twice heavier than naval twin turrets of similar caliber.
3) After the need to engage targets at long range was confirmed by the examination of the Austrian Prinz Eugen battleship surrendered to France at the end of WW1, it was decided to give the guns an unusual +50 degrees elevation, providing a maximum range of 38,749 yards (35,432 meters) with the 1,268-lb Model 1924 AP shell.
4) Construction of the battery started in 1928 and was completed in 1934-1935. Turret C (K-20 for the Germans) was built 42 meters above water level and Turret F (K-21 for the Germans) was built 60 meters above water level. Each turret was installed on a two-level underground foundation. Level 1 was 8.5 meters underground, and was protected by a 5-meter thick reinforced concrete roof and 5-meter thick reinforced concrete side walls. Level 2 was 13.0 meters underground, and was protected by a 1-meter thick reinforced concrete roof. Both levels were 3.5 meters high.
5) The turrets were located 400 meters apart and were connected together by a tunnel.
Saint-Mandrier Battery, Operation Dragoon, August 1944
Saint-Mandrier Battery, Operation Dragoon, August 1944
Additional details on the battery during WW2 :
1) The battery remained under French command until the invasion of the Free Zone by the Germans on 27 November 1942 (Operation Anton). The battery was subsequently placed until Italian command until the capitulation of 8 September 1943, by which time the Germans took control.
2) During the invasion of the Free Zone, the guns of Turret F were successfully sabotaged by their French crew, but the guns of Turret C suffered only minor damage and remained operational.
3) After the Kriegsmarine took over in 1943, it was decided to repair Turret F with guns salvaged from the scuttled battleship Provence. After being relined at the Ruelle arsenal, the guns were re-installed in Turret F and fire-tested on 13 August 1944. Turret F (now designated K-21) was subsequently declared operational on 15 August 1944, but only the right gun was operational, the left gun awaiting further repair to its sabotaged recuperator.
4) Allied air bombardment was carried out from 15 August to 20 August 1944. In the afternoon of 16 August 1944, Turret C (K-20) was hit by one 2,000-lb bomb, which started a fire in the right compartment of the turret. Because of the damaged inflicted, the Germans decided to sabotage the left gun on 17 August 1944. This was concealed from allied air reconnaissance, and Turret C (K-20) remained under heavy air and surface bombardment until 27 August 1944.
5) Naval gunfire followed suite from 20 August to 27 August 1944. Turret F (K-21) nevertheless remained operational until German surrender on 28 August 1944. Its right gun fired 218 shells until the evening of 26 August 1944, keeping Allied warships beyond 16,400 yards (15,000 meters).
6) The Allies dropped a total of 809 bombs against the Saint-Mandrier Battery : 393 on Turret C (K-20) and 416 on Turret F (K-21).
7) Allied warships fired 1,532 shells from 8" guns or above : 880 against Turret C (K-20) and 652 against Turret F (K-21). USS Nevada contributed a total of 260 x 14" shells (188 AP rounds + 72 HC rounds), all of them presumably against Turret F. Lorraine fired a total of 128 x 340mm rounds.
(source : La Colline des Tourelles Perdues by Capitaine de Frégate BREHIER, published in Cols Bleus 1780, 3 December 1983).
Saint-Mandrier Battery, Operation Dragoon, August 1944
Additional details on the battery during WW2 :
1) The battery remained under French command until the invasion of the Free Zone by the Germans on 27 November 1942 (Operation Anton). The battery was subsequently placed until Italian command until the capitulation of 8 September 1943, by which time the Germans took control.
2) During the invasion of the Free Zone, the guns of Turret F were successfully sabotaged by their French crew, but the guns of Turret C suffered only minor damage and remained operational.
3) After the Kriegsmarine took over in 1943, it was decided to repair Turret F with guns salvaged from the scuttled battleship Provence. After being relined at the Ruelle arsenal, the guns were re-installed in Turret F and fire-tested on 13 August 1944. Turret F (now designated K-21) was subsequently declared operational on 15 August 1944, but only the right gun was operational, the left gun awaiting further repair to its sabotaged recuperator.
4) Allied air bombardment was carried out from 15 August to 20 August 1944. In the afternoon of 16 August 1944, Turret C (K-20) was hit by one 2,000-lb bomb, which started a fire in the right compartment of the turret. Because of the damaged inflicted, the Germans decided to sabotage the left gun on 17 August 1944. This was concealed from allied air reconnaissance, and Turret C (K-20) remained under heavy air and surface bombardment until 27 August 1944.
5) Naval gunfire followed suite from 20 August to 27 August 1944. Turret F (K-21) nevertheless remained operational until German surrender on 28 August 1944. Its right gun fired 218 shells until the evening of 26 August 1944, keeping Allied warships beyond 16,400 yards (15,000 meters).
6) The Allies dropped a total of 809 bombs against the Saint-Mandrier Battery : 393 on Turret C (K-20) and 416 on Turret F (K-21).
7) Allied warships fired 1,532 shells from 8" guns or above : 880 against Turret C (K-20) and 652 against Turret F (K-21). USS Nevada contributed a total of 260 x 14" shells (188 AP rounds + 72 HC rounds), all of them presumably against Turret F. Lorraine fired a total of 128 x 340mm rounds.
(source : La Colline des Tourelles Perdues by Capitaine de Frégate BREHIER, published in Cols Bleus 1780, 3 December 1983).
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