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  • #31
    Originally posted by parihaka
    We do, we're just god-awful at it
    Fine by me as long as the Patriots wore no pads as well. By the way, Rugby sides don't have an offensive and defensive side, they're one and the same, nor do they stop for tv commercials. Within 5 minutes the Patriots would be run off their feet and gasping for breath while the All Blacks would still be getting into their stride. Wanna see a Patriot try and stop this guy?
    Within five minutes that guy guy would be injured because his team mates wouldn't be able to protect him. We have linemen running running sub five second 40s these days. Rugby is about some guy running around with a ball and people hitting him. Football is some guy running around with a ball and people hitting him, but with strategy involved. You could have the 11 best athletes in the world on your team, but if they can't run a play right or read coverage they will get their butts handed to them.
    F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by BenRoethig
      Within five minutes that guy guy would be injured because his team mates wouldn't be able to protect him. We have linemen running running sub five second 40s these days. Rugby is about some guy running around with a ball and people hitting him. Football is some guy running around with a ball and people hitting him, but with strategy involved. You could have the 11 best athletes in the world on your team, but if they can't run a play right or read coverage they will get their butts handed to them.
      LOL rugby's a strategic game as well, 2 of our guys are representative sprinters, and they get hit dozens of times a game and just bounce back up again. The only way to find out is to play a game where in the first half they play the American game, and the second half play Rugby. Then a return match with Rugby first then Gridiron (is that what you call it?) second. Not that it would ever happen of course but it sure would be fun to watch
      In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

      Leibniz

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      • #33
        Ah well. There was much conjecture before the game that the Lions coach Clive Woodward was holding back, keeping his gameplans hidden until the tests. Nope. My granny could have come up with a better one. The conditions were freezing, it rained for most of the game, and when it wasn't raining it was hailing, conditions thought to suit the Lions more than the All Blacks who prefer a dry pitch for fast running. Well if it suited the Lions God help them when it's dry. I don't think anyone could deny they were comprehensively outplayed in almost every facet of the game, they lost 10 lineouts against the throw for gods sake. There are great players amongst the Lions side, pity their coach isn't. Score 24 -3, an All Black victory and the scoreline flattered the Lions. Fail with a must try harder
        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

        Leibniz

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        • #34
          and of course LOL, we 'cheated'

          Woodward calls for Umaga, Mealamu citings
          26 June 2005


          Fuming Lions rugby coach Sir Clive Woodward has pointed the finger at All Blacks captain Tana Umaga and hooker Keven Mealamu for the alleged spear tackle which ended Brian O'Driscoll's tour last night.

          After viewing the videotape of the incident in the second minute of the Lions' 3-21 first test loss to the All Blacks, Woodward said he would ask the match citing commissioner to review it.

          Woodward had spoken to O'Driscoll who was hospitalised with a dislocated shoulder which took 25 minutes to put back in.

          "He's under no doubt he was spear tackled by two New Zealand players, No 2 Mealamu and No 12 Tana Umaga," Woodward said.


          "It is, in my opinion, a pretty horrendous tackle and it's put him out for a long time."

          Woodward said the ball was "long gone" when the incident occurred.

          "He (O'Driscoll) was lucky to get away with what he did, he landed on his neck and it could have been a lot worse.

          "It was a bad foul and, to me, a sending off incident for both players. We'll just see how the New Zealand camp deal with it.

          "He's got absolutely no doubt he was speared to the ground in a totally defenceless position. He's extremely upset and very angry."

          An All Blacks spokesman said it was inappropriate to comment.

          Flanker Richard Hill also suffered a tour-ending knee injury last night.

          Hill left the field midway through the first half with a wrenched knee while utility back Tom Shanklin was ruled out of the tour earlier today with ongoing knee problems.

          "We've lost O'Driscoll and Shanklin from that outside centre position, and Richard Hill, so it's been a tough day all round," Woodward said.

          Umaga was reluctant to comment on suggestions of foul play.

          "There were a few incidents out there that will probably be under scrutiny in the next couple of days," Umaga said.

          Woodward said no decision had been made on replacements, but ruled out anyone arriving in time to be considered for the second test in Wellington next Saturday.

          It continued the injury woes for the 45-man Lions squad, who lost loose forward Lawrence Dallaglio, lock Malcolm O'Kelly and No 8 Simon Taylor earlier in the tour.
          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

          Leibniz

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          • #35
            Finally...

            Well, the Lions midweek team played a second string Manawatu team last night and finally showed some bottle. In a mismatched contest the Lions scored 100 and something to six. And so they should. What was heartening about the game wasn't the on field performance but that the test-team Lions fronted up from their luxury headquarters in Wellington and supported their team-mates.
            Meanwhile the British press seem to have finally got over their Alister Campbell (yes, he of Tony Blair sexed up dosier fame) spin about 'the All Blacks are thugs' and started looking at the woeful coaching from Woodward et al. Up to now hosting the Lions has been an exercise in embarrassment, trying to afford respect to their proud tradition and finding little in the current tour to support that respect. By actually turning up and supporting their team and followers, the test team has finally shown that they too respect the game, the tour and their tradition.

            here's the latest from the British press.
            Only Test victory can win back All Blacks' respect
            James Lawton in Wellington
            29 June 2005


            There is sometimes the finest line between contempt and, worse still, pity, but the All Black feelings towards the British and Irish Lions could hardly be painted in less subtle brush-strokes. For the moment at least you have to settle for contempt.

            An explosion of try-scoring yesterday against a skeletal Manawatu, with the attack led by Shane Williams, a Welshman who previously appeared to have as much chance of making the Test team as scaling the other side of the moon, might just provoke a sliver of reappraisal. But then anything like traditional regard for the historic foe is still a long and tumultuous journey away.

            Record-scoring in the "boonies" could never have been enough to shake the reasserted New Zealand belief in their absolute superiority. For the Lions there is only one option - victory here at the "Cake Tin" stadium on Saturday in the second Test. It is - the All Black hierarchy have made clear - the only acceptable downpayment on that old respect.

            The dismissal by the New Zealand coach, Graham Henry, of the Lions' "spin-doctoring" in the wake of their crushing defeat in the first Test and the controversial loss of their captain, Brian O'Driscoll, has been progressively obvious since last Saturday in Christchurch, but here in his seafront headquarters he left the cruellest jibe to his forwards' coach, Steve Hansen.

            Hansen, who like Henry played a key role in the renaissance of Welsh rugby that ended with last season's Six Nations Grand Slam, was asked if the injury to O'Driscoll meant a certain call from the Lions coach, Sir Clive Woodward, to another potential Welsh virtuoso Gavin Henson for the next Test.

            "I don't know what's he's going to do," said Hansen, "and I'm not sure he knows what he's going to do."

            Henry had been at pains to point out that his squad still held the Lions players in great respect - and that complacency could be a problem in settling the series - but as his assistant went for the jugular, he smiled sardonically. It was the smile of a man who felt the battle might just be over.

            This certainly is the belief of David Kirk, who led the All Blacks to their only World Cup triumph in 1987 and is just of one a whole queue of legendary New Zealand players lining up here to fire at the meaning of the biggest, most heavily financed touring party in the history of the Lions.

            Woodward's attack on the conduct of the All Black captain, Tana Umaga, who with the hooker Keven Mealamu threw down O'Driscoll in the incident that left the Lions captain with a dislocated shoulder and a spectator's role for the rest of the tour, has been painted by Kirk as evidence of a loss of nerve - a flailing and unsuccessful attempt to distract attention from the bankruptcy of his team's display and the loss of credibility in his selections.

            Kirk said: "Attacking the All Blacks captain when you're one Test down is the last thing you should do, even if his team played as badly as his did - because it will only serve to galvanise New Zealand further. Woodward is struggling under the pressure of coaching a mediocre side, which is ironic after him saying that New Zealand were carrying all the pressure.

            "Coaches and managers can obviously have their opinions but spitting the dummy in public about an independent and impartial judicial decision, even if he thinks he got it wrong, is disrespectful and just shows how much pressure Woodward is under. It's a serious blunder and shows how much he is struggling."

            All this could be written in the clearest shades of black - and an extremely pallid red - but for the O'Driscoll issue. Was he "speared" in a way that could have left him in the company of 84 New Zealand rugby players have been left as paraplegics by dangerous tackling? Henry is emphatic that Umaga and Mealamu had no premeditated plans to target O'Driscoll and put him out of the game, and still less the tour, and that what the Lions captain suffered was not a spearing but a malignant piece of rugby chance. But he did agree that "spearing" was a serious issue, a point he had acknowledged many times. He also said that the entire All Black squad and coaches felt great sympathy for O'Driscoll, and that the captain, Umaga, would express that in in his own time - and in his own way.

            Meanwhile, yes, said Henry, he was sure that the Lions' spin doctors - he has still not deigned to mention Alastair Campbell, the Lions press officer and former right-hand man of the Prime Minister, Tony Blair - would continue to ride the issue for all it was worth. He found this "very disappointing."

            Even the outbreak of Lions scoring - and what seemed like genuinely rediscovered relish for the game in previously no-hope contenders like Williams, Gordon Darcy and Geordan Murphy and Ronan O'Gara up the road in Palmerston North - could not staunch All Black criticism of Woodward's overall strategy.

            Henry dwelt on his respect for the quality of talent in the Lions line-up, praised the fire and the optimism of the Welsh players - and even conceded that Woodward's own supreme achievement in winning the World Cup on the basis of forward power and the kicking of Jonny Wilkinson, was an act that had not been entirely overtaken by the pace and skill of, say, his own All Black team. The knock on his rival, he suggested, was that something on a par with the World Cup feat could not be reproduced here with so many ageing Englishmen, picked at the expense of younger and maybe more dynamic talent from outside his chosen circle.

            Of all that talent, none blazed so coruscatingly yesterday than that of Williams, who made the All Blacks think in the World Cup 18 months ago. Whether he can do it again in a few days' time is just one question facing Woodward. Maybe the most haunting of all is whether he can, in terms of his own reputation, win now whatever he does.
            And for the record, the incident that so raised Woodwards ire during the first test was when two NZ players, Umanga (the photo above) and Mealamu cleared O'Driscoll from a ruck. The line ref., an Australian three metres from the incident, the match ref., a Frenchman five metres from the incident and the Citing Commissioner, a South African who reviewed seventeen camera angles, all saw nothing untoward in the tackle. The Lions team may hopefully yet emerge from this tour with honour, Woodward, Campbell and O'Driscoll will not.
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

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            • #36
              holy cow!

              Last night in the 'cake tin' in my home city of Wellington Tana Umaga our home town hero led the All Blacks out onto the field to the rapturous applause of the Wellington supporters and the raucous din of the lions supporters. This was a grudge match. For the entire week the Lions management, in an attempt to unsettle Umaga and the team as a whole, had consistently and vociferously slandered his morals and ability, the Lions team was set to teach the AB's a lesson, and the AB's were out for revenge. This was a whole new Lions team, not just because there were eleven changes within the fifteen man team but because they were finally fired up, giving their all in a no quarter given game of passion. They started brilliantly with a try within 3 minutes to their new captain. Then the All Blacks shifted gears. Then they changed to third gear. Then skipped fourth and went straight into fifth. Then 3/4 way through the match they turned on the turbo. In short, a Lions team that even last year could have consistently fought the AB's, and would still give Australia or South Africa a run for their money was made to look ordinary. Passion and fighting spirit were not enough. Twenty years ago a young NZ team, the 'Baby Blacks' took rugby to a whole new level and secured the world cup with a style that has been the bench-mark ever since. It has happened again. Every coach in the world will now be sitting down to work out just what the hell they are going to do now. I'll let Eddie Butler, a staunch critic of AB and southern hemisphere rugby in general take up the story....


              Age catches up with poor old Sir C

              Eddie Butler
              Sunday July 3, 2005
              The Observer

              The thought of a 30-point hiding should have been hideous. That was Christchurch times two, more or less, and there had been nothing to come out of the first Test except abject underachievement. If Wellington was going to worse then we had better hone the butcher's knife.
              But, hell, the All Blacks were good. And if you can find a better all-round player than Dan Carter then you should sign up as his agent and prepare for a life of luxury. Carter was sublime, a blend of high-speed athleticism and ice-cool intelligence.
              When he kicked, he found acres of space. When he passed, he put players into space. When he ran, he purred into space. When he tackled, he knocked Lions back by the metre. If rugby genius is the mastery of space then Carter is up there in stellar orbit.
              Jonny Wilkinson can play a bit, too. Or could. But he has been left behind by the advances that have taken place in the Kiwi game. Ever since the sport went professional, the New Zealanders, in the name of appealing to a broader public, expanded the game, emphasising skill and speed and daring. Carter is the child of revolution.

              Rather sniffily, we in the less radical northern hemisphere used to say that the dash of the Super 12 was rather contrived. Slightly cosmetic. Or that entertainment comes only at a price. If you promote adventure, you downgrade the basics. Yes, we all knew that the All Blacks could do the fancy-dan stuff, but they had lost the hard arts of Test rugby.

              My foot. This series was won by the All Blacks forwards, even before Carter began his virtuoso turn. The front five always had the nudge - the most telling three inches in the game - at the engagement of the scrum and they turned the Lions at will on the touring team's put-in.

              And if the Lions' line-out was not the skittle-alley scene of confusion it had been in Christchurch, it did not function as smoothly as the home team's. Simon Easterby was a bonus for the Lions at the tail, but elsewhere the ball bobbled precariously from fingertip to fingertip.

              At the restarts the All Blacks were much better also. Richie McCaw, the most error-free flanker in the world, lost one, just to show that it is not the easiest skill in the game, but the Lions hardly caught a thing. The restart has been a bane.

              But it was the breakdown that remained the real curse of the tour for Sir C's men. Here, the real damage was done. First, the Lions had to survive the tackling of the All Blacks back row. Poor little Shane Williams was flattened so often, he could have been chewing-gum on a pavement. I swear, I have seen smaller Brecon Beacons than Jerry Collins's biceps.

              Then came the scramble for ruck-ball. When the All Blacks went in with the ball, it took only a couple of porters to fetch it out. When the Lions had possession, it required a small army to prise it free. So much energy and manpower had to be spent on the scraping out of almost unusable possession.

              And when it did reappear, the All Blacks had more players available for the next assault of tackles. The Lions faithfully tried to play a more expansive game, but, the first few minutes apart, they were outmanoeuvred and outmanned.

              In Christchurch last weekend, such was the ease with which Chris Jack and Ali Williams picked off Shane Byrne's throws, it had been as if somebody had left the Lions' line-out code-book in a taxi. In Wellington yesterday, it seemed as if somebody had presented the All Blacks with a leather-bound copy of the Lions' calls behind the scrum. New Zealand seemed to know their opponents' every move.

              Or perhaps it was just that the Lions were so laboured in their designs that it was too easy to anticipate who was going to receive the ball. Which brings us to the second part of all this. If the All Blacks were majestic, how dreadful have these Lions turned out to be?

              On every tour there tends to be one dominant nationality. In 1971, the only time the Lions have won here, the core of the team was Welsh. In 1977, when the Lions' rally should have done better, it was Welsh again. In 1983, things were so bad it was irrelevant and in 1993 the theme was English. It makes things easier: to take the most successful team in the Five or Six Nations and make it the heart of the Test XV.

              Sir Clive Woodward went for a lot of English players, despite their country's mediocre campaign in this year's Six Nations. His template was 2003: big Englishmen playing big, set-piece rugby.

              The game has moved on since England won the World Cup in 2003. And as progress has taken the game in one direction, the tick-tock of the clock has taken the legs of several of Woodward's stalwarts in another. Defying the tradition of making the champions of the Six Nations the kernel of the Lions is one thing. Ignoring the advance of time is another. This squad has turned out to be over the hill.

              Of course, there has been bad luck and in particular the injuries to Lawrence and Brian O'Driscoll. But neither would have held up the All Blacks. If you lose up front, it does not matter if you are playing intergalactic rugby with Carter or hoofing the ball down the middle of the pitch as the Lions did, you will lose the game.

              And these Lions have been taken up front. For all the complexity and fizz of the Super 12, this has been simple. The Lions have been stuffed.

              Reputations are bound to suffer. Andy Robinson, coach of the forwards here, has had a tough time since he became England head coach. Robinson's packs do not send shivers down the spine.

              Woodward selected old and has played old. His only innovations have been in the esoteric world of management. His cast of scores, including his lawyer and his chef and his spinner, has made him a figure of fun in New Zealand, where they still view rugby as rugby. He is far removed from the coach who first appeared in the 1990s and preached a new liberalism. Age gets to us all.

              And so to the next age, the one that counts: the future of the game. If this tour does anything, it should shake our game into change. Wales are moving on. Now England must follow. In the great debate about the values of the new world and their Super 12 rugby against the traditional lines of the old country and their World Cup of 2003 there has been only one winner.

              Emphatic as the result has been in this one-sided series, we should be at least grateful that it did not turn out to be gruesome to behold. Sir C tried to paint a picture of spear-tackling ugliness, but the lasting impression of this tour will be of his Lions being taken apart in the best possible taste by Carter and some very big biceps.
              I'll just add one thing. The press has been full of praise for Daniel Carter and rightly so, but this victory wasn't secured by him, but by the Team, and that will be Tana Umaga's greatest gift to NZ rugby. We have re-learnt the ability to play not as a team of stars, but as a star team.
              Last edited by Parihaka; 03 Jul 05,, 05:22.
              In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

              Leibniz

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