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  • Originally posted by Monash View Post

    I would have thought their experience in commanding/managing large scale sea borne assaults would be relevant. If not always? Then at least initially, until such time as the beachhead was secured and allied forces had pushed far enough inland so as to give their merchandised an infantry forces enough room to maneuver? IMO that's when I can see Allen's and Roosevelt's experience being mute.
    Collins commanded the 25th Division on Guadalcanal but as we all know the Marines conducted the landings against little opposition then. The Army never conducted a landing, under fire, but relieved the Marines in November 1942 at Henderson. While there was fierce fighting inland there wasn't really any experienced gained by doing a landing into a contested beach head.

    I'm not even sure how fighting the Japanese would translate over to the Germans because they were so different in their methods.

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    • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

      The part in the book, page 188, the author doesn't go into that. You read it so you know what I am referring to. The author says Allen was ill- disciplined. I assume to superior commanders but there is nothing about the troops. Knowing you specialize in history I figured you would have a deeper background knowledge. So you may get more from me.

      Thanks...
      Yeah I have read a lot on the topic. The 1st ID troops were allowed to run unchecked in the streets of French North Africa after that campaign. Same when Sicily was done. They thought they had done their bit so the troops wanted to be sent home and let others continue the fight. This when things had changed and all enlistments and inductions had the provision "For the duration of the war plus 6 months". Huebner came in and got their heads straight.
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

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      • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

        I need to go back over what I read in the 1st or 2nd chapter where I had a question. Yet for now I have some current questions and will ask as I move through the chapters. as they come up.

        In Chapter 10 Allen and Roosevelt were relieved in command of the 1st Infantry Division. Bradley wrote about it in his memoirs. The two commanders were extremely popular with their men. I understand that Allen was a bit of a maverick when it came to senior commanders. Yet it sounds like he got results and his men would follow him anywhere. Being removed compromised the morale of the entire Division. That would be bad in my eyes. So what are these change - management studies? Are they private industry or are there military equivalents?

        Second, I personally have never taken benzedrine. Used to stay awake when one should really have rest. I know, that personally, I am useless, if I get only 5 hours of sleep. Hang over type headache, short tempered, and irritable. Six hours and I am good for 1/2 day. When going to the Reserve Fleet, years ago, I could only manage six hours of sleep. The adrenaline of parts hunting kept me engaged until noon and lunch. I quickly learned you can fall asleep on a steel deck with no problems. In short you wouldn't want me operating equipment with five hours of sleep much than less than that. So is this a WWII thing or...?

        Third, two generals were involved who were in the Pacific. Really? They brought them over for D-Day? I understand experience but their experience is of fighting the Japanese on an island and not a more mechanized army on a continent.
        I have no idea about the use of benzedrine. I have no experience but can't address it. As for why bring Collins and Corlett to the ETO to take commands there...Collins was one of the younger officers whom Marshall had identified in the 1930s as an up and comer. And he was right. He did well in the final campaign at Guadalcanal. And while it may seem easy Collins had 2 divisions left to defeat the remainders of the majority of 2 Japanese divisions. He did well against the first real counterattack against Japanese forces. Prior to that that the US forces fought defensive battles. He learned some valuable lessons so for him to be plucked for Europe is not a surprise.

        Charles Corlett led the successful amphibious operation of the Aleutians and Kwajalein Atoll. His leadership demonstrated an understanding and the ability to successfully execute the most difficult of all military actions...the attack upon an a defended enemy shore. He also displayed an understanding of the cooperation required for the deft execution of joint operations. His success is in the Pacific was matched by success in Europs.

        I actually wished Corlett would have stayed in the Pacific to be a bulwark against the shabby treatment by Marine commanders of Army leaders in the Central Pacific.
        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
        Mark Twain

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        • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

          I have no idea about the use of benzedrine. I have no experience but can't address it.
          As to benzedrine we werent the first military to use it:

          https://museumofhealthcare.blog/benz...ht-management/

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          • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
            Then Chapter 3 where the first Americans arrive after the Canucks had been there awhile. Reminded me of four brothers in a way. The brothers being Brits, Aussies, Canadians, and Americans. After high school they go their separate ways until 50 years later for a reunion. The first three stayed in touch somewhat but not their American brother. The children of the first three had heard stories about their black sheep uncle. They were excited to meet that black sheep uncle when he arrived as his exploits sounded so cool. Independent, brash, outgoing, on the move doing different things in life compared to their steady fathers. When they meet him he is everything they thought while their fathers were like who are you. Soon the differences would melt away and they were brothers again.
            This is not correct and in fact when Canada and Australia became Dominion Powers. Kitchener wanted to spread Canadian and Australian troops within British formations. Both Canada and Australia objected. Either you take Canadians and Australians as Armies or you take nothing.

            When the Americans arrived, they forced the Brits to stop being a Colonial overseer and see their Dominions as legitimate powers.

            Fast forward to Afghanistan 2011, the EU asked for 300 combat engineers. The Canadians say you take a Battle Group or you take nothing. The Americans took the Battle Group to flush out their Bde before the Europeans even had a chance to answer.

            Chimo

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            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              This is not correct and in fact when Canada and Australia became Dominion Powers. Kitchener wanted to spread Canadian and Australian troops within British formations. Both Canada and Australia objected. Either you take Canadians and Australians as Armies or you take nothing.

              When the Americans arrived, they forced the Brits to stop being a Colonial overseer and see their Dominions as legitimate powers.

              Fast forward to Afghanistan 2011, the EU asked for 300 combat engineers. The Canadians say you take a Battle Group or you take nothing. The Americans took the Battle Group to flush out their Bde before the Europeans even had a chance to answer.
              Well I wasn't talking about Armies. This was an more along the lines of "There was a priest, a minister, and a rabbi, on the side of the road when a man comes along driving a jack up pickup packed with beer and laughing teenagers in the back. He looks at their sign about the end is near and yells out "you religious nuts"... Kinda like that.
              Last edited by tbm3fan; 25 Mar 24,, 17:02.

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              • AR, have you read anything by Col. Russel Reeder?

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                • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                  AR, have you read anything by Col. Russel Reeder?
                  Nope Never really got into his work. Maybe a magazine article or three.
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

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                  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                    Nope Never really got into his work. Maybe a magazine article or three.
                    Ok, then you must have read something by John McManus? He has three books about the US Army in the Pacific. I'll have to get since my father was US Army Pacific starting late 1943.

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                    • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

                      Ok, then you must have read something by John McManus? He has three books about the US Army in the Pacific. I'll have to get since my father was US Army Pacific starting late 1943.
                      Have read several to include his Pacific Trilogy. Excellent. First E books I enjoyed. Got for my Ireland trip last fall and enjoyed through the fall. Also his book on OMAHA Beach was excellent as well.
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                        Have read several to include his Pacific Trilogy. Excellent. First E books I enjoyed. Got for my Ireland trip last fall and enjoyed through the fall. Also his book on OMAHA Beach was excellent as well.
                        Yes, another trilogy to get. I am just finishing up Sand & Steel, if you can call 112 pages left out of 879...

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                        • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

                          Yes, another trilogy to get. I am just finishing up Sand & Steel, if you can call 112 pages left out of 879...
                          All 3 are pretty dense...but so, so good! I have about a 100 pages left in Fire & Steel.
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

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                          • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                            All 3 are pretty dense...but so, so good! I have about a 100 pages left in Fire & Steel.
                            Sand & Steel done and onto Snow & Steel this past Saturday...

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                            • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                              All 3 are pretty dense...but so, so good! I have about a 100 pages left in Fire & Steel.
                              In Snow and Steel I just finished Chapter 10. Chapters 8-10 were very illuminating. Eight on Hitler's quirks and what made him tick. Nine and ten on our intelligence personalities, their quirks, and then our failures.

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                              • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

                                In Snow and Steel I just finished Chapter 10. Chapters 8-10 were very illuminating. Eight on Hitler's quirks and what made him tick. Nine and ten on our intelligence personalities, their quirks, and then our failures.
                                I found those chapters to be incredibly revealing. As much as I studied the campaign I learned quite a bit. A great historian and author.
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

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