Krokodile

[Tamara]

I keep reading the thread and one thing bothers me.

If this drug is super lethal as reported, it's counter-business oriented. In 3 years the dealer will be out of customers........

Only if his supply base was constant. It isn't. Further, he's not compelled to have any truth in advertising. He or she will probably tell the client anything to get them to take an addictive hit and when they do, they are probably hooked.

Tell your friends, get them to try the free sample, come on, one try isn't going to hurt....etc, etc, etc.

Ever see "Live and Let Die" when Dr. Kananga is talking about what to do with that 2 tons of heroin? Give it away free, till his competitors are driven out of business and the number of addicts triple, and then start charging for something he knows they cannot refuse. At a 007 fiend level, even in a Moore movie, that's BAD but if one thinks about it the street level, of how it changes people, what it would mean to the 'clean' people around them, that is positively terrifying.

Addiction to escapism is hard thing to beat, even when it is just mental. I know, I've seen it with people hooked on the Net such as college students who played MUDs in the 90's. They would spend all night in the labs, sleep through their classes, go back for more, repeat, and flunk out. But at least with the mental side of it, there are a lot of limiting factors that might stop one. Realizing what one is doing and stopping it just by hitting an off switch, locking up the cable, cancelling the service. Friends, teachers, parents getting through. Saturation limits; in my case, my REM sleep is extremely powerful, fantastic, I could escape there if it weren't for that I can't control it and............sooner or later, you can't sleep anymore for a while.

Now take that "need" for escapism and combine it with something that makes you want it physically, that will make you sick, put you in pain to deny it. The desire for pleasure is something that we are hardwired for so there isn't much of a wonder of why we seek it. If in anything else, here in drugs we have something that will hurt you if you don't go out and get the pleasure it promises, true or not, it can deliver.

[Doktor]

Good God. The denial of addicts about this horrible drug has already begun.

I keep reading the thread and one thing bothers me.

If this drug is super lethal as reported, it's counter-business oriented. In 3 years the dealer will be out of customers.

Just trying to look at it from another angle.

In the other news, I am kind of glad* such lethal drug exists. Lately, I see more junkies walking around then 'clean' people. What am I suppose to tell my kid when he asks? They are high and alive. The others are dead and were down before that.

* I know there is a better word, but can't think of it at the moment.

Disclaimer: From drugs I only used weed 3x and decided that alcohol gives more constant results. :whome:

[bonehead]

Well, that's an interesting view into the differences between men and women.

Quickly, a few basic things about suicide. Women attempt suicide more than men; men are usually successful on the first try. Men usually use more surer, more violent ways than women.

So, saying that if you want to kill yourself, fine, but you have to use this non violent/(non)messy means, that probably has a great potential for messing with the masculinity of men who might be rather disturbed already. IE, taking a shotgun to one's head in the backyard might show at the last moment, he still had something in him to "do the right thing". Taking a pill was the sissy way out of it.

So, speculating more, let's just take it a step or two more. We might see a reduction in violent suicides but men being men, I suspect that we would still see a lot of violent suicides including murder-suicides. And if the hope to this eventually works, that if one is going to off themselves, to do it in a non violent/non messy way, then it just might be one more step to the pu**ification of America.

Now mind you, I am just saying, it is just an observation of a possibility, it is just in my humble opinion..............I could be wrong.

One thing to keep in mind that there are two main reasons for attempting suicide. The first is that those people really want to die. therefore they will generally use the more successful methods. The second group basically wants attention and is willing to risk their lives to get it. This group generally uses less successful methods.

I should have expanded my last post. I am all for a "suicide center" where someone can voluntarily come in be checked out by a doctor sign some papers and have at it via lethal injection. I see this as much more humane and less messy than jumping off a bridge or building,eating a bullet, etc.

[Tamara]

The difference? Fill up a syringe with krokodile and try to inject it in a tanker....then get back to me.

Seriously though. If a person wants to kill himself they should be free do do so and a non violent/messy means should be at their disposal. My issue is when they involve others ie suicide by cop, or going the wrong way on the freeway in hopes of hitting a tanker head on. If people want to die fine, however you can accomplish this without putting others at risk.

Well, that's an interesting view into the differences between men and women.

Quickly, a few basic things about suicide. Women attempt suicide more than men; men are usually successful on the first try. Men usually use more surer, more violent ways than women.

So, saying that if you want to kill yourself, fine, but you have to use this non violent/(non)messy means, that probably has a great potential for messing with the masculinity of men who might be rather disturbed already. IE, taking a shotgun to one's head in the backyard might show at the last moment, he still had something in him to "do the right thing". Taking a pill was the sissy way out of it.

So, speculating more, let's just take it a step or two more. We might see a reduction in violent suicides but men being men, I suspect that we would still see a lot of violent suicides including murder-suicides. And if the hope to this eventually works, that if one is going to off themselves, to do it in a non violent/non messy way, then it just might be one more step to the pu**ification of America.

Now mind you, I am just saying, it is just an observation of a possibility, it is just in my humble opinion..............I could be wrong.

[bonehead]

We either legalise drugs or we invent a cheaper,faster and less nasty way to die.Morally the freaks that start this crap deserve what they get.Problem is when some ''regular'' junkie gets cheated by criminals.For all what's worth there is still some hope for the ''normal'' freak.

The evil in this world knows no ends.

I have no sympathy for most addicts as they clearly voluntarily went down that road themselves. Many such drug addictions are simply a form of Russian roulette. Some high on drugs do dangerous things and die while under the influence, some "accidentally" O.D. on their drug of choice, and sometimes the drug just kills them outright. The vast majority of people can't be that ignorant and have to know the risk involved of doing drugs from the very start.

[bonehead]

What it does to the addict can be described as the addict doing a Darwin on himself.

That his actions may have severe harmful effects on another, an innocent, however, translates into that the addict is not the only one affected. It is not a situation of "Good! Let him and then we will be rid of him" since his actions may take out others as well.

Just like in analogy that the man with the shotgun in his backyard only directly takes out himself so that can be okay but it is not the same, not as "okay" when a man rams his car into a gasoline tanker to end himself since others can be harmed................yet, either way, the man dies. What's the difference?

The difference? Fill up a syringe with krokodile and try to inject it in a tanker....then get back to me.

Seriously though. If a person wants to kill himself they should be free do do so and a non violent/messy means should be at their disposal. My issue is when they involve others ie suicide by cop, or going the wrong way on the freeway in hopes of hitting a tanker head on. If people want to die fine, however you can accomplish this without putting others at risk.

[bonehead]

Anyway, getting back to Kroc, a kid I talked today said there is good and bad Kroc. I asked him how he knew and he said that was the word going around. A standard M.O. of pushers is to downplay the danger of a drug.

Good God. The denial of addicts about this horrible drug has already begun.

[JAD_333]

Uhm....??? Really?, no one drinks ethylene glycol, not who wants to live. I've never heard of a non-suicide non-child case.

It happens. I remember stories in the papers about bums found in skid row dead from drinking antifreeze.

Ethylene glycol may be swallowed accidentally, or it may be taken deliberately in a suicide attempt or as a substitute for drinking alcohol (ethanol).

Ethylene Glycol Intoxication - Symptoms, Diagnosis, Treatment of Ethylene Glycol Intoxication - NY Times Health Information

Many cases of ethylene glycol poisoning are due to the accidental ingestion of it by children. They may take in large amounts since the substance tastes good. Alcoholics may also drink it as a substitute for alcohol (ethanol).

Antifreeze poisoning definition - Medical Dictionary definitions of popular medical terms easily defined on MedTerms


Anyway, getting back to Kroc, a kid I talked today said there is good and bad Kroc. I asked him how he knew and he said that was the word going around. A standard M.O. of pushers is to downplay the danger of a drug.

[Mihais]

We either legalise drugs or we invent a cheaper,faster and less nasty way to die.Morally the freaks that start this crap deserve what they get.Problem is when some ''regular'' junkie gets cheated by criminals.For all what's worth there is still some hope for the ''normal'' freak.

The evil in this world knows no ends.

[Tamara]

You said the people could no longer get their codeine and I only highlighted that they still can. Russia is not some third world backwoods country. Doctors are plentiful so seeing a doctor for a prescription so the country can clamp down on stuff like Krocodile making is not a bad thing.


I strongly disagree with the Darwin thing. At this point there is no plausible deniability as to the lethality of krokodile. When you take it you KNOW it will kill you and you will suffer horribly before the end. That is unmistakably Darwinism in action.

What it does to the addict can be described as the addict doing a Darwin on himself.

That his actions may have severe harmful effects on another, an innocent, however, translates into that the addict is not the only one affected. It is not a situation of "Good! Let him and then we will be rid of him" since his actions may take out others as well.

Just like in analogy that the man with the shotgun in his backyard only directly takes out himself so that can be okay but it is not the same, not as "okay" when a man rams his car into a gasoline tanker to end himself since others can be harmed................yet, either way, the man dies. What's the difference?

[bonehead]

Well, one can discuss what "...just have to go to a doctor....." can really mean, from both sides of the coin, in a different topic. The point is, here, in this topic, in the news article used to start it, we are not talking about what has occurred in "many states" before. We are talking about a foreign country, a different way of life, and I really don't think it's correct to dismiss that issue because of how life is here.

The thing is that when there are things like this happening or that occurring just because an addict wants a fix, it is not really about just the addict doing a Darwin on themselves.

You said the people could no longer get their codeine and I only highlighted that they still can. Russia is not some third world backwoods country. Doctors are plentiful so seeing a doctor for a prescription so the country can clamp down on stuff like Krocodile making is not a bad thing.


I strongly disagree with the Darwin thing. At this point there is no plausible deniability as to the lethality of krokodile. When you take it you KNOW it will kill you and you will suffer horribly before the end. That is unmistakably Darwinism in action.

[Tamara]

They are not going to take away the codeine. They just will need a prescription to get it as it will be no longer an off the shelf item. Many states did the same thing with cold medicine that had the ingredient that "cook's" needed to make their meth. It can be a hassle but if you really need it you just have to go to a doctor.

I do realize that addicts do not live in a vacuum. What they do does affect others in some form. To what extent is sometimes hard to gauge. However when it comes to the actual act of filling a needle with poison and injecting it in their body...that is all on the addict.

Well, one can discuss what "...just have to go to a doctor....." can really mean, from both sides of the coin, in a different topic. The point is, here, in this topic, in the news article used to start it, we are not talking about what has occurred in "many states" before. We are talking about a foreign country, a different way of life, and I really don't think it's correct to dismiss that issue because of how life is here.

The thing is that when there are things like this happening or that occurring just because an addict wants a fix, it is not really about just the addict doing a Darwin on themselves.

[zraver]

Substituting is nothing new. Drinking antifreeze is still a problem among poor alcoholics. It attacks the liver. Ironically the best treatment is ethanol.

Uhm....??? Really?, no one drinks ethylene glycol, not who wants to live. I've never heard of a non-suicide non-child case. In my time in AA I learned that they may drink rubbing alchohol... But even the driest county in the nation has lots of easily access cheap do in a pinch booze- vanilla, mouthwash etc.

Bonehead, in the US codeine is already a prescription only drug. So we are looking at dirty pharmacies or its being brought in from Canada/Mexico.

[bonehead]

A major catch is that almost universally, one way or another, they don't do it just to themselves. For example, look at the opening news article: to fight this crime problem, they are going to take away the access to pain drugs from the people who really need them (right or wrong on that issue).

Or does the production of this stuff come with similar consequences to the production of meth such as exploding kitchens, illegal toxic waste dumps, contaminated housing, or perhaps just spillover fire as SWAT raids the house of one's neighbor?

Think of all the stuff an addict might do to obtain their next fix (and if one is addicted to this stuff, they are pretty desperate) and one can probably come up with many situations where it is just not the addict affected.

They are not going to take away the codeine. They just will need a prescription to get it as it will be no longer an off the shelf item. Many states did the same thing with cold medicine that had the ingredient that "cook's" needed to make their meth. It can be a hassle but if you really need it you just have to go to a doctor.

I do realize that addicts do not live in a vacuum. What they do does affect others in some form. To what extent is sometimes hard to gauge. However when it comes to the actual act of filling a needle with poison and injecting it in their body...that is all on the addict.

[JAD_333]

Substituting is nothing new. Drinking antifreeze is still a problem among poor alcoholics. It attacks the liver. Ironically the best treatment is ethanol.