Millionaire Acid Attack Victim Using Money for Surgery - India

[lemontree]

How is that any different from here in the US where police routinely set up speed traps in small towns and villages where they wait upon unsuspecting travelers who would be traveling 55 mph and suddenly find themselves in a 35 mph and going 20 mph above the speed limit and forking out huge fines? It can cost upwards to $1000 in some jurisdictions. Are you going to use this ancedote as a justified basis that there is something seriously wrong with United States? It is very common in other areas of the globe. In fact, we have a sophisticated term for what you just described, "staged accidents" and it is a serious problem in the U.S.

Well the you must also know that in the US the Justice dept and the FBI investigate "staged accidents". Can you give me a parallel in India?

Speaks volume about your logic, doesn't it and in addition, your knowledge of how the real world works.
This goes to show what an ignorant you are towards me. You think so much of yourself. I know how things work in India. I have spent considerable time in India and understand how things operate in certain ways in India and have grown streetwise. I don't need your preaching.

You are a complete hypocrite and that is what glares out from your posts. The moment you are pointed out, you take offence and start calling names ans resort to insults, Grow up.

You have not been able to reply to any of the examples I have posted or proven them to be one off incidents, but make pathetic attempts to equate the similarity in the the US.

Again you just proved my point. You prefer to make those sweeping generalizations that those lazy westerners are so fond of when they have no clear understanding of the situation involved. You prefer to apply a broad based brush against all the people that came out in support of the victim based on an episode of where a man allegedly groped a female protestor in a very crowded place where people are jostling against each other. I am not saying that the female reporter is wrong but her claim has not been substantiated and has to be looked as an isolated incident, not a symptom of the generalization put forth by Minksaya.

As per emerging details, 20 cars passed the victims on 16 Dec. Some cars did not stop and those that did, the people did nothing to help. The same people are crying hoarse against the establishment - WTF did they do when they could have helped?
I'm not applying a borad sweep against people, but it is the attitude that has to change.

You have still failed you prove that Minskaya was wrong.

You can keep drinking that kool aid that the British oppressors dished out in order to justify their rule.

Excuse me, I'm living in free India as an Indian, you are the one who chased them back to live under a foreign government...Lol

[kuku]

Even if the people are too illiterate to understand the consequences of their decisions, it is still thievery! It is like stealing a candy from a baby by tricking the baby and than claiming it's not thievery since the baby willingly gave it up.

Voting on the basis of caste just shows the huge chips people carry on their shoulders. Voting on caste lines has not made UP any better place to live, yet their people still do it! Take one look at Bihar. The moment Biharis voted for a regime on the basis of development, rather than caste, Bihar's economic growth has finally started to slowly rise that state out of the gutter! The folks of UP can either learn from Bihar, or keep voting on the basis of caste and stay one of the poorest, and overpopulated states of India.

I have not said elites are running India; I have consistently said that thieves are running India. Folks like Mayawati or Mulayam are not elites; they are either petty criminals or just from poorer backgrounds who happen to grab power using the backwards petty "casteist" politics and than go on a corruption overdrive becoming multi-millionaires by stealing the tax-paying middle class's money.

?
The people are involved in corruption, not just sitting around wondering what happened, and people fully understand the consequenses of their decisions, a illiterate and a poor person is not a fool, he/she fully understands that people win elections and get to rule over them only when they give them the vote. They are a part of this corrupt form of governance.

Yes that is what i said, people get the leaders they deserve, the people of UP have to realise its their own government, and they can rise up to improve it, we have to help them do it if we can.

Well, in that case, we also are the petty criminals and "power grabbing politicians from poorer backgrounds".

[Tronic]

If this corruption is sanctioned by the people with active participation, i do not believe it is thievery.

Even if the people are too illiterate to understand the consequences of their decisions, it is still thievery! It is like stealing a candy from a baby by tricking the baby and than claiming it's not thievery since the baby willingly gave it up.

Well being uneducated and poor is not an excuse for living in shitty conditions and not doing anything about it, It is a reason to struggle to get out of these conditions (if anything). And voting on the basis of caste shows a very specific intent.

Voting on the basis of caste just shows the huge chips people carry on their shoulders. Voting on caste lines has not made UP any better place to live, yet their people still do it! Take one look at Bihar. The moment Biharis voted for a regime on the basis of development, rather than caste, Bihar's economic growth has finally started to slowly rise that state out of the gutter! The folks of UP can either learn from Bihar, or keep voting on the basis of caste and stay one of the poorest, and overpopulated states of India.

If we get the leaders who steal it is because we ourselves are thieves and bigots, being poor and uneducated is not an excuse for claiming there is a elite section of society who is running away with things and controlling India, because there is no such thing, we ourselves are the elite and the poor.

I have not said elites are running India; I have consistently said that thieves are running India. Folks like Mayawati or Mulayam are not elites; they are either petty criminals or just from poorer backgrounds who happen to grab power using the backwards petty "casteist" politics and than go on a corruption overdrive becoming multi-millionaires by stealing the tax-paying middle class's money.

[Doktor]

i have already expressed what i have experienced in the last few decades. i have seen it happen in front of me. what drives people to change is the green money. the men have simply thought to themselves that a women is more valuable if she earns money rather than to spend the same time in the kitchen.

So, let me see if I get you right, a working woman is 'worth' more then one in the kitchen?

Let me ask you these: are you married and do you have a sister?

contrary to money, i have never seen speeches about egalitarianism, democracy and morality actually works.

Then how you think women got suffrage, slaves got abolition..?

who is better?

That's what I am asking you.

we have had democracy for more than 60 years. there are still hardly any roads or any infrastructure. the police are personal bodyguards of the politicians. there is corruption in every aspect of life and the people in power don't punish them. more than half of india lives in villages ploughing agriculture fields and rearing livestock. half of the water is wasted in damaged supply lines. electricity power cuts is an everyday occurrence. villages hardly get 6hrs of power supply in 24 hrs which is at night to help sleep. the justice system is only for the top 5% of the wealthy population.

Then change it. You are still a democracy.

india is entirely(note the word "entirely") dysfunctional.

I have to disagree. All I have to do is find one example where India functions. First thing to my mind is space program.

with the exception of religious extremism and ethnic/religious genocides in the neighbourhood, how exactly is india different from its neighbours?

IDK, you tell me. You live there. What I get here is that with the improvement of the economy, the situation is improving every day. I am sure you can send me 100 links how it is bad, but as I said, it is a vast, very populated country with a lot of different people, religions, so it's hard to make a one size fits all solution.

Doktor, my point is, we(indians) are capable of much much better and it is an insult for us when you compare or benchmark us with the animals in our neighbourhood. what democracy has done to india is that it has completely removed accountability and responsibility and given the current regime dictator like powers.

I agree Indians are capable to make great things, but I can't set UK as a benchmark. You must see how you are doing compared to your surroundings first. And thinking of your neighbors as animals doesn't help at all.

Again, if democracy is bad for India, which system will be good?

[Tronic]

Tronic my friend,do not decieve yourself that the United States is any different....the so-called enlightened electorate here would rather be led by the nose to the slaugther-house than think for themselves....

That may be true Shams, but the US electorate is still a lot more educated than the Indian electorate, and if your leaders are bad, than just imagine the leaders we end up with!

[Blademaster]

Dont rave and rant because you are quiet mistaken.
I'll give you an example - last month a friend of mine was travelling by road in Madhya Pradesh. On the outskirts of Indore, they were stopped by some villagers and accused of causing a road accident and handed over to the police. The Police threatened to charge them unless they paid up INR 25,000/-. The whole charade is created by the local villagers and the Police to extort money from innocent travellers. Fortunately, my friend had contacts in Indore who knew the DIG of Police and so was let off.

How is that any different from here in the US where police routinely set up speed traps in small towns and villages where they wait upon unsuspecting travelers who would be traveling 55 mph and suddenly find themselves in a 35 mph and going 20 mph above the speed limit and forking out huge fines? It can cost upwards to $1000 in some jurisdictions. Are you going to use this ancedote as a justified basis that there is something seriously wrong with United States? It is very common in other areas of the globe. In fact, we have a sophisticated term for what you just described, "staged accidents" and it is a serious problem in the U.S.

Speaks volume about your logic, doesn't it and in addition, your knowledge of how the real world works.

This is reality that you are ingnorant about. So dont just blame one particular political party of evils in the country, Madhya Pradesh is a BJP ruled state.

The is the real ugly face that you may have never seen.

This goes to show what an ignorant you are towards me. You think so much of yourself. I know how things work in India. I have spent considerable time in India and understand how things operate in certain ways in India and have grown streetwise. I don't need your preaching.

When you have cases as reported here - The page could not be found | mid-day.com is the good that you claim. These are not criminals or police or judiciary...people like them make the multitudes that is India.

Oh BTW, during the protest rallies in New Delhi last week, a female reporter was groped by a man "who has come to support" the protestors. That is how we are that is how we prefer to remain, because "you" dont want it to be pointed out.

Again you just proved my point. You prefer to make those sweeping generalizations that those lazy westerners are so fond of when they have no clear understanding of the situation involved. You prefer to apply a broad based brush against all the people that came out in support of the victim based on an episode of where a man allegedly groped a female protestor in a very crowded place where people are jostling against each other. I am not saying that the female reporter is wrong but her claim has not been substantiated and has to be looked as an isolated incident, not a symptom of the generalization put forth by Minksaya.

Your statement on Sati just confirmed that your knowledge of India is pure crap and based on misplaced jingoistic historical accounts.
Dont try and teach me history.

Oh really...? yeah keep talking that way and pretty soon enough you are going to think that everybody else's knowledge is crap and misplaced jingoistic historical accounts. Ok I won't teach you history. You can keep drinking that kool aid that the British oppressors dished out in order to justify their rule.

[kuku]

I had a client once, they had gone to 4 different technology vendors for a solution and nothing worked.
When we went in, our solution worked well and with consistent performance.
The reason was that we had a policy that only our people will operate our system, with a 7 year O&M contract.

I am sure any of the competitors technologies would have worked, however this particular problem required a constant attention and a different work culture.

I think you can go ahead and filed any system in India, none will work till you change the culture, there is abundant proof around to suggest that democracy is the good thing in India, instead of the bad things, of which (bad things) there are plenty of examples.

[anil]

Then do something factual.

i have already expressed what i have experienced in the last few decades. i have seen it happen in front of me. what drives people to change is the green money. the men have simply thought to themselves that a women is more valuable if she earns money rather than to spend the same time in the kitchen.

contrary to money, i have never seen speeches about egalitarianism, democracy and morality actually works.

Well look around yourself. Any of your neighbors (bar Singapore maybe) fares better then India?

who is better?

we have had democracy for more than 60 years. there are still hardly any roads or any infrastructure. the police are personal bodyguards of the politicians. there is corruption in every aspect of life and the people in power don't punish them. more than half of india lives in villages ploughing agriculture fields and rearing livestock. half of the water is wasted in damaged supply lines. electricity power cuts is an everyday occurrence. villages hardly get 6hrs of power supply in 24 hrs which is at night to help sleep. the justice system is only for the top 5% of the wealthy population.

india is entirely(note the word "entirely") dysfunctional.

with the exception of religious extremism and ethnic/religious genocides in the neighbourhood, how exactly is india different from its neighbours?

Doktor, my point is, we(indians) are capable of much much better and it is an insult for us when you compare or benchmark us with the animals in our neighbourhood. what democracy has done to india is that it has completely removed accountability and responsibility and given the current regime dictator like powers.

[Doktor]

I don't think long speeches about democracy and gender egalitarianism changes anything. I equate these speeches as just another form of rhetoric.

Then do something factual.

What is important is what works and what doesn't work. After 65 years of never ending circus shows, one would think that the existing political setup will be declared a failure but nooooooo, it keeps going on and on.

Well look around yourself. Any of your neighbors (bar Singapore maybe) fares better then India?

[anil]

I don't think long speeches about democracy and gender egalitarianism changes anything. I equate these speeches as just another form of rhetoric.

What is important is what works and what doesn't work. After 65 years of never ending circus shows, one would think that the existing political setup will be declared a failure but nooooooo, it keeps going on and on.

[lemontree]

How dare you of you to think that I would hide the filth. I have aptly pointed out the flaws of the judiciary system. That system was a holdover from the days of the British colonialism. The ruling elites had no interested of changing the archiac system which was primarily oriented to preserving the law and order in favor of the elites, which happens to be Congress. In no way I did hide the filth. I did not fail to see the rot. I do see the rot but I also see where it is localized instead of making the lazy or stupid generalizations that the westerners and Indians w/ self esteem problems make instead of doing the hard work and seeing where it is localized. In fact I also see the goodness and willingness to change unlike you who only see the rot of Indians through a western lens. So yes I dare preach to you of aping western attitudes towards India when your attitude takes on a tone of a paternalistic attitude towards Indians based on sweeping generalizations and without realization of where the flaw lies within.

Dont rave and rant because you are quiet mistaken.
I'll give you an example - last month a friend of mine was travelling by road in Madhya Pradesh. On the outskirts of Indore, they were stopped by some villagers and accused of causing a road accident and handed over to the police. The Police threatened to charge them unless they paid up INR 25,000/-. The whole charade is created by the local villagers and the Police to extort money from innocent travellers. Fortunately, my friend had contacts in Indore who knew the DIG of Police and so was let off.

This is reality that you are ingnorant about. So dont just blame one particular political party of evils in the country, Madhya Pradesh is a BJP ruled state.

The is the real ugly face that you may have never seen.

When you have cases as reported here - http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/dec...l.htm....where is the good that you claim. These are not criminals or police or judiciary...people like them make the multitudes that is India.

Oh BTW, during the protest rallies in New Delhi last week, a female reporter was groped by a man "who has come to support" the protestors. That is how we are that is how we prefer to remain, because "you" dont want it to be pointed out.

I would not be surprised if you would quote the British general, Napier, who threatened to hang anybody who would burn a widow and used the justification for ruling India and you, as many other ignorant westerners would credit him and the British for single-handely stopping the practice when it was actually bullsh-t propaganda and the real change came at the hands of indigenous hindu and other religious (Sikhs) organizations whose efforts and success went largely unrecognized and undocumented for stopping the practice. Napier and his laws had sh!t to do with wiping out the sati practice when him and his cronies could not even penetrate the towns and villages and largely ignored the welfare of the Indians and only exploited the Indians for British's gain.

Your statement on Sati just confirmed that your knowledge of India is pure crap and based on misplaced jingoistic historical accounts.
Dont try and teach me history.

[Shamus]

Tronic my friend,do not decieve yourself that the United States is any different....the so-called enlightened electorate here would rather be led by the nose to the slaugther-house than think for themselves....

[kuku]

Kleptocracy is not "elites rule", but "thieves rule", and she lives up to the definition.
I believe you're trying to debate casteist politics here, and electing thieves merely because they belong to your own "caste" is an even bigger shame! Yes, it is a foolish thing to do!
As I said, India is still a largely uneducated and poor country, and it is the votes of those uneducated and poor people, voting on the basis of petty things such as "caste", who largely sway the government.

If this corruption is sanctioned by the people with active participation, i do not believe it is thievery.

I am not discussing caste politics specifically. The issues will change from one place to another.

Well being uneducated and poor is not an excuse for living in shitty conditions and not doing anything about it, It is a reason to struggle to get out of these conditions (if anything). And voting on the basis of caste shows a very specific intent.

If we get the leaders who steal it is because we ourselves are thieves and bigots, being poor and uneducated is not an excuse for claiming there is a elite section of society who is running away with things and controlling India, because there is no such thing, we ourselves are the elite and the poor.

[Tronic]

She did go from being a poor slum dweller to an elite robbing her state blind i think in a elite rule the nation scenario that is impossible

Kleptocracy is not "elites rule", but "thieves rule", and she lives up to the definition.

And unlike what you seem to suggest my experience is quite different people in UP voted for her, she has the support of her community and she won the election in a very tough power struggle.
As for people support she has it, So do theYadavs, the thakurs and the pandits, and the muslims.

If the people so choose they can continue to vote for whosoever they like, if it was as simple as voting for the populist scheme which just put food on the table, with a completely corrupt government, then no government willever go out of power. To call an uneducated man a fool is not wise, may be you mean uninformed?

I believe you're trying to debate casteist politics here, and electing thieves merely because they belong to your own "caste" is an even bigger shame! Yes, it is a foolish thing to do!

The responsibility lies with the people, we are the government and the lawyers and the police and the engineers, doctors.etc. Andthetools to improve the situation are with us

As I said, India is still a largely uneducated and poor country, and it is the votes of those uneducated and poor people, voting on the basis of petty things such as "caste", who largely sway the government.

[Tronic]

Democracy is foreign to india. Monarchy is indigenous to our lands with hundreds of self governing provinces.

In Punjab, we had a Confederacy before the Brits arrived. While all the Confederate Punjabi states were monarchies, the Sarbat Khalsa established a somewhat semi-democratic tradition in Punjab. Power was not entirely absolute and it was distributed down through to the Misls and the Jathas. Voting also took place to elect 5 members moderating the Sarbat Khalsa.

While in British India, democracy was not directly introduced by the British, but rather, by Westernized Indian elitists who brought home the concept of democracy to be used against the totalitarian rule of the British. The Indian National Congress from the 1860s onwards was composed entirely of Indian elites postured up against the British. It was only after Gandhi joined the INC that he took the party from an elitist party to a party of the masses, which gave birth to the massive civil disobedience movements.

What were the "indigenous monarchs" doing all this time? They were all either enjoying their luxurious lifestyles as vassals of the British, while their subjects starved to death, or the ones who chose to fight, had their kingdoms usurped.