Global Warming...Fact or Fiction?

[Officer of Engineers]

the article completely ignores that oxygen level was higher than today during dinosaurs times, you can not look at co2 level alone.

Goes to the point that the earth will adapt whether we humans like it or not.

[omon]

the article completely ignores that oxygen level was higher than today during dinosaurs times, you can not look at co2 level alone.

The dinosaurs apparently breathed air that was much richer in oxygen than our air and lived in forests and grasslands that were far more combustible than ours. The metabolisms evolved to live is such an atmosphere might be radically different from ours.

[Officer of Engineers]

I went back and checked at 6000 ppm there are some minor health effects but its ready breathable. Physical exertion would be very difficult but over time a young healthy person could probably adapt.

This paper says, don't do it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60412018312807

The highest estimates I've seen referred to in literature for the Jurassic was 5000 ppm BTW.

https://news.climate.columbia.edu/20...y-cant-humans/

[Monash]

5000 PPM is the absolute limit of exposure in 8 hours. 6000 PPM 24/7 you start running into health problems.

I went back and checked at 6000 ppm there are some minor health effects but its ready breathable. Physical exertion would be very difficult but over time a young healthy person could probably adapt. The highest estimates I've seen referred to in literature for the Jurassic was 5000 ppm BTW.

[Officer of Engineers]

5000 PPM is the absolute limit of exposure in 8 hours. 6000 PPM 24/7 you start running into health problems.

[Monash]

Really? A simple google showed Jurassic was 6000 parts per million. Today, we've reached a high of 400 parts per million. Nature will adapt. We play zero parts in those plans.

From my understanding 600ppm of Co2 is perfectly breathable. People might find the air a bit 'heavy' and it might mean physical activity was more tiring (at least until people got used to it or adapted) but other than that its not a problem

[Officer of Engineers]

Sorry I've seen no scientific papers to suggest that was the case. CO2 levels were higher yes but not as high as you seem to indicate.

Really? A simple google showed Jurassic was 6000 parts per million. Today, we've reached a high of 400 parts per million. Nature will adapt. We play zero parts in those plans.

[Monash]

But not necessarily to our benefit. Humans today cannot breath the air of the dinosaurs. We would choke. CO2 then is way, way, way higher than even the worst proponent of human induced global warming could even imagine.

Sorry I've seen no scientific papers to suggest that was the case. CO2 levels were higher yes but not as high as you seem to indicate. A large factor playing into the Jurassic and Cretaceous periods relatively warm and wet climatic conditions were the shape of the continents at the time. For example there were lots of shallow seas separating or surrounding parts what is North America and Western Europe this enabled rich, wet ecosystems to thrive. And it wasn't just higher CO2 levels and sea levels that were responsible either the shape and positioning of the earths major land masses relative to each other and the poles dictated how ocean currents actually circulated and distributed the additional heat.

I absolutely agree. It is up to us to change human civilization. It is not up to us to change the climate nor are we capable of it. And we will change human civilization. Through war if need be.

As I noted the chemical composition of the earth atmosphere that WILL impact how heat is distributed around the globe. Doing something about the issue no only helps to resolve the issues resulting from that change the side benefits include less pollution overall including noise pollution. Beyond that war would only make the problems wore not just by putting more shit into the air but by diverting or destroying resources that could be used for large scale remediation efforts should they be considered necessary.

Plus I like my modern conveniences and find the idea of dodging starving cannibals in bombed out cities a bit to tiresome for my tastes.

[Officer of Engineers]

I repeat the problem is the environment, given time it adapts to to such changes.

But not necessarily to our benefit. Humans today cannot breath the air of the dinosaurs. We would choke. CO2 then is way, way, way higher than even the worst proponent of human induced global warming could even imagine.

The problem is human civilization, it doesn't have the luxury of time.

I absolutely agree. It is up to us to change human civilization. It is not up to us to change the climate nor are we capable of it. And we will change human civilization. Through war if need be.

[Monash]

Here's the thing. The Earth has ALWAYS been on a cycle. Hot-Cold-Hot-Cold and there's zero indications that we, humans, have any effect. I should hope to hell that we are on a warming cycle because the alternative is that we're heading for an Ice Age and there's zero we can do to stop it.

We can prove that the chemical composition of the atmosphere has changed (higher and increasing concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere) that is scientific fact. The debate is over to what extent that increase is having an impact? But the fact also remains that it will have one because any shift in the relative composition of a planets atmosphere will change the thermal properties of that atmosphere. The real problem is not that the Earth gets hotter or colder than it was before the industrial revolution it's that the bulk of humanity have settled in those parts of the globe best suited to supporting large populations under historic/existing climatic conditions i.e. those areas best suited to growing crops and raising livestock etc. Change climatic condition's and you change the locations of those areas.

For example Pakistan has a population of 233 million. The vast majority of those people depend on just 5 major rivers to produce the majority of their drinking water and to raise crops. These rivers are fed by glacial runoff from the Himalayas and those glaciers are shrinking. So if the time comes where an increasing population cannot be supported by those water sources Pakistan could well fail as a State and all those 233 million people? They're going to vote with their feet and start walking to where there is water. Now imagine similar problems in Africa and/or South America brought about by changing local weather patterns. Do you really think doing nothing is an option?

I repeat the problem is the environment, given time it adapts to to such changes. The problem is human civilization, it doesn't have the luxury of time.

[Officer of Engineers]

Here's the thing. The Earth has ALWAYS been on a cycle. Hot-Cold-Hot-Cold and there's zero indications that we, humans, have any effect. I should hope to hell that we are on a warming cycle because the alternative is that we're heading for an Ice Age and there's zero we can do to stop it.

[JRT]

Where are the secondary forcings?

Watch the video below.

04 February 2023
I Misunderstood the Greenhouse Effect. Here's How It Works.
(19 min, 51 sec)

Correction to what I say at 7:13 (7 min,13 sec):
The major reason air pressure decreases is that the gravitational pressure from the air above it decreases. The gravitational force itself also decreases but that's a rather minor contribution. Sorry about that, a rather stupid brain-fart.

How does the greenhouse effect work? Greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide and methane, prevent infrared radiation from escaping to outer space. This warms the surface of earth. More greenhouse gas means more warming. Simple enough! Alas, if you look at the numbers, it turns out that most infrared radiation is absorbed almost immediately above the ground already at pre-industrial greenhouse gas levels. So how does it really work? In this video, I try to sort it out.

00:00 Intro
00:40 The Greenhouse Effect: Middle School Version
03:17 The Greenhouse Effect: High School Version
10:33 The Greenhouse Effect: PhD Version
14:30 Stratospheric Cooling
16:24 Summary

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[Parihaka]

Where are the secondary forcings?

[JRT]

World Meteorological Organization confirms record high Arctic temperatures
18 December 2021

Claire Nulls, a spokeswoman for the World Meteorological Organization, validates new records in the Arctic and Antarctic.

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[JRT]

Melting of the Thwaites Glacier could rewrite the global coastline
15 December 2021

A warming atmosphere and warming ocean currents are creating concern in the Arctic Circle and on the continent of Antarctica. The Arctic Report Card shows high temperatures, shrinking sea ice and extreme melting events are transforming the region. At the opposite pole, in Antarctica, a key ice shelf that sits in front of the Thwaites Glacier could break up much sooner than expected — within 5 years. William Brangham reports.

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