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  • gunnut
    replied
    The final countdown

    Time is fast running out to stop irreversible climate change, a group of global warming experts warns today. We have only 100 months to avoid disaster. Andrew Simms explains why we must act now - and where to begin

    If you shout "fire" in a crowded theatre, when there is none, you understand that you might be arrested for irresponsible behaviour and breach of the peace. But from today, I smell smoke, I see flames and I think it is time to shout. I don't want you to panic, but I do think it would be a good idea to form an orderly queue to leave the building.
    Because in just 100 months' time, if we are lucky, and based on a quite conservative estimate, we could reach a tipping point for the beginnings of runaway climate change. That said, among people working on global warming, there are countless models, scenarios, and different iterations of all those models and scenarios. So, let us be clear from the outset about exactly what we mean.
    The concentration of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere today, the most prevalent greenhouse gas, is the highest it has been for the past 650,000 years. In the space of just 250 years, as a result of the coal-fired Industrial Revolution, and changes to land use such as the growth of cities and the felling of forests, we have released, cumulatively, more than 1,800bn tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere. Currently, approximately 1,000 tonnes of CO2 are released into the Earth's atmosphere every second, due to human activity. Greenhouse gases trap incoming solar radiation, warming the atmosphere. When these gases accumulate beyond a certain level - often termed a "tipping point" - global warming will accelerate, potentially beyond control.

    Faced with circumstances that clearly threaten human civilisation, scientists at least have the sense of humour to term what drives this process as "positive feedback". But if translated into an office workplace environment, it's the sort of "positive feedback" from a manager that would run along the lines of: "You're fired, you were rubbish anyway, you have no future, your home has been demolished and I've killed your dog."

    In climate change, a number of feedback loops amplify warming through physical processes that are either triggered by the initial warming itself, or the increase in greenhouse gases. One example is the melting of ice sheets. The loss of ice cover reduces the ability of the Earth's surface to reflect heat and, by revealing darker surfaces, increases the amount of heat absorbed. Other dynamics include the decreasing ability of oceans to absorb CO2 due to higher wind strengths linked to climate change. This has already been observed in the Southern Ocean and North Atlantic, increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, and adding to climate change.

    Because of such self-reinforcing positive feedbacks (which, because of the accidental humour of science, we must remind ourselves are, in fact, negative), once a critical greenhouse concentration threshold is passed, global warming will continue even if we stop releasing additional greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. If that happens, the Earth's climate will shift into another, more volatile state, with different ocean circulation, wind and rainfall patterns. The implications of which, according to a growing litany of research, are potentially catastrophic for life on Earth. Such a change in the state of the climate system is often referred to as irreversible climate change.

    So, how exactly do we arrive at the ticking clock of 100 months? It's possible to estimate the length of time it will take to reach a tipping point. To do so you combine current greenhouse gas concentrations with the best estimates for the rates at which emissions are growing, the maximum concentration of greenhouse gases allowable to forestall potentially irreversible changes to the climate system, and the effect of those environmental feedbacks. We followed the latest data and trends for carbon dioxide, then made allowances for all human interferences that influence temperatures, both those with warming and cooling effects. We followed the judgments of the mainstream climate science community, represented by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), on what it will take to retain a good chance of not crossing the critical threshold of the Earth's average surface temperature rising by 2C above pre-industrial levels. We were cautious in several ways, optimistic even, and perhaps too much so. A rise of 2C may mask big problems that begin at a lower level of warming. For example, collapse of the Greenland ice sheet is more than likely to be triggered by a local warming of 2.7C, which could correspond to a global mean temperature increase of 2C or less. The disintegration of the Greenland ice sheet could correspond to a sea-level rise of up to 7 metres.

    In arriving at our timescale, we also used the lower end of threats in assessing the impact of vanishing ice cover and other carbon-cycle feedbacks (those wanting more can download a note on method from onehundredmonths.org). But the result is worrying enough.

    We found that, given all of the above, 100 months from today we will reach a concentration of greenhouse gases at which it is no longer "likely" that we will stay below the 2C temperature rise threshold. "Likely" in this context refers to the definition of risk used by the IPCC. But, even just before that point, there is still a one third chance of crossing the line.
    Today is just another Friday in August. Drowsy and close. Office workers' minds are fixed on the weekend, clock-watching, waiting perhaps for a holiday if your finances have escaped the credit crunch and rising food and fuel prices. In the evening, trains will be littered with abandoned newspaper sports pages, all pretending interest in the football transfers. For once it seems justified to repeat TS Eliot's famous lines: "This is the way the world ends/Not with a bang but a whimper."

    But does it have to be this way? Must we curdle in our complacency and allow our cynicism about politicians to give them an easy ride as they fail to act in our, the national and the planet's best interest? There is now a different clock to watch than the one on the office wall. Contrary to being a counsel of despair, it tells us that everything we do from now matters. And, possibly more so than at any other time in recent history.

    It tells us, for example, that only a government that was sleepwalking or in a chemically induced coma would countenance building a third runway at Heathrow, or a new generation of coal-fired power stations such as the proposed new plant at Kingsnorth in Kent. Infrastructure that is fossil-fuel-dependent locks in patterns of future greenhouse gas emissions, radically reducing our ability to make the short- to medium-term cuts that are necessary.

    Deflecting blame and responsibility is a great skill of officialdom. The most common strategies used by government recently have been wringing their hands and blaming China's rising emissions, and telling individuals to, well, be a bit more careful. On the first get-out, it is delusory to think that countries such as China, India and Brazil will fundamentally change until wealthy countries such as Britain take a lead. And it is wildly unrealistic to think that individuals alone can effect a comprehensive re-engineering of the nation's fossil-fuel-dependent energy, food and transport systems. The government must lead.
    In their inability to take action commensurate with the scale and timeframe of the climate problem, the government is mocked both by Britain's own history, and by countries much smaller, poorer and more economically isolated than we are.

    The challenge is rapid transition of the economy in order to live within our environmental means, while preserving and enhancing our general wellbeing. In some important ways, we've been here before, and can learn lessons from history. Under different circumstances, Britain achieved astonishing things while preparing for, fighting and recovering from the second world war. In the six years between 1938 and 1944, the economy was re-engineered and there were dramatic cuts in resource use and household consumption. These coincided with rising life expectancy and falling infant mortality. We consumed less of almost everything, but ate more healthily and used our disposable income on what, today, we might call "low-carbon good times".

    A National Savings Movement held marches, processions and displays in every city, town and village in the country. There were campaigns to Holiday at Home and endless festivities such as dances, concerts, boxing displays, swimming galas, and open-air theatre - all organised by local authorities with the express purpose of saving fuel by discouraging unnecessary travel. To lead by example, very public energy restrictions were introduced in government and local authority buildings, shops and railway stations. This was so successful that the results beat cuts previously planned in an over-complex rationing scheme. The public largely assented to measures to curb consumption because they understood that they were to ensure "the fairest possible distribution of the necessities and comforts of daily life".
    Now, 2008, we face the fallout from the credit crisis, high oil and rising food prices, and the massive added challenge of having to avert climate change.

    Does a war comparison sound dramatic? In April 2007, Margaret Beckett, then foreign secretary, gave a largely overlooked lecture called Climate Change: The Gathering Storm. "It was a time when Churchill, perceiving the dangers that lay ahead, struggled to mobilise the political will and industrial energy of the British Empire to meet those dangers. He did so often in the face of strong opposition," she said. "Climate change is the gathering storm of our generation. And the implications - should we fail to act - could be no less dire: and perhaps even more so."

    In terms of what is possible in times of economic stress and isolation, Cuba provides an even more embarrassing example to show up our national tardiness. In a single year in 2006 Cuba rolled-out a nationwide scheme replacing inefficient incandescent lightbulbs with low-energy alternatives. Prior to that, at the end of the cold war, after losing access to cheap Soviet oil, it switched over to growing most of its food for domestic consumption on small scale, often urban plots, using mostly low-fossil-fuel organic techniques. Half the food consumed in the capital, Havana, was grown in the city's own gardens. Cuba echoed and surpassed what America achieved in its push for "Victory Gardening" during the second world war. Back then, led by Eleanor Roosevelt, between 30-40% of vegetables for domestic consumption were produced by the Victory Gardening movement.

    So what can our own government do to turn things around today? Over the next 100 months, they could launch a Green New Deal, taking inspiration from President Roosevelt's famous 100-day programme implementing his New Deal in the face of the dust bowls and depression. Last week, a group of finance, energy and environmental specialists produced just such a plan.

    Addressed at the triple crunch of the credit crisis, high oil prices and global warming, the plan is to rein in reckless financial institutions and use a range of fiscal tools, new measures and reforms to the tax system, such as a windfall tax on oil companies. The resources raised can then be invested in a massive environmental transformation programme that could insulate the economy from recession, create countless new jobs and allow Britain to play its part in meeting the climate challenge.

    Goodbye new airport runways, goodbye new coal-fired power stations. Next, as a precursor to enabling and building more sustainable systems for transport, energy, food and overhauling the nation's building stock, the government needs to brace itself to tackle the City. Currently, financial institutions are giving us the worst of all worlds. We have woken to find the foundations of our economy made up of unstable, exotic financial instruments. At the same time, and perversely, as awareness of climate change goes up, ever more money pours through the City into the oil companies. These companies list their fossil-fuel reserves as "proven" or "probable". A new category of "unburnable" should be introduced, to fundamentally change the balance of power in the City. Instead of using vast sums of public money to bail out banks because they are considered "too big to fail", they should be reduced in size until they are small enough to fail without hurting anyone. It is only a climate system capable of supporting human civilisation that is too big to fail.

    Oil companies made profits when oil was $10 a barrel. With the price now wobbling around $130, there is a huge amount of unearned profit waiting for a windfall tax. Money raised - in this way and through other changes in taxation, new priorities for pension funds and innovatory types of bonds - would go towards a long-overdue massive decarbonisation of our energy system. Decentralisation, renewables, efficiency, conservation and demand management will all play a part.

    Next comes a rolling programme to overhaul the nation's heat-leaking building stock. This will have the benefit of massively cutting emissions and at the same time tackling the sore of fuel poverty by creating better insulated and designed homes. A transition from "one person, one car" on the roads, to a variety of clean reliable forms of public transport should be visible by the middle of our 100 months. Similarly, weaning agriculture off fossil-fuel dependency will be a phased process.

    The end result will be real international leadership, removing the excuses of other nations not to act. But it will also leave the people of Britain more secure in terms of the food and energy supplies, and with a more resilient economy capable of weathering whatever economic and environmental shocks the world has to throw at us. Each of these challenges will draw on things that we already know how to do, but have missed the political will for.

    So, there, I have said "Fire", and pointed to the nearest emergency exit. Now it is time for the government to lead, and do its best to make sure that neither a bang, nor a whimper ends the show.
    · Andrew Simms is policy director and head of the climate change programme at NEF (the new economics foundation). The material on climate models for this article was prepared by Dr Victoria Johnson, researcher at NEF on climate change. For regular suggestions for what individuals and groups can do to take action, and links to a wide range of organisations supporting the focus on the 100 months countdown, go to: onehundredmonths.org. The Green New Deal can be downloaded at neweconomics.org
    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...arbonemissions

    The article was from July 31.....2008, 121 months ago.

    Since we have already reached the tipping point for a global runaway greenhouse effect 21 months ago, I guess we can do whatever we want now. Ain't nothin's gonna stop it now.

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  • Wooglin
    replied
    USA today article from today [bold mine]

    Sea ice north of Greenland is usually frozen year-round, and scientists believed it would stay that way longer than virtually anywhere else in the Arctic. That's why some are so surprised — and concerned — that the region has thawed multiple times this year.

    The ice is some of the oldest and thickest in the Arctic, according to reporting by CNN and The Guardian. But scientists have observed something unusual this year: Miles of open water.

    The geography of the area usually helps to pack the ice and keep it from melting. The ice smashes up against Greenland's coast, at times piling 70 feet high, CNN reports.

    The trend is so strong that the region has commonly been called "the last ice area," The Guardian reports.

    "This was the area that was seen as the last bastion," Walt Meier, a research scientist with the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center, told CNN. Even as Arctic ice melting increases, scientists thought the region would remain stable longer than anywhere else, he said.

    The melts have occurred twice this year — once in February and again in August, The Guardian reports. Winds and unusually warm weather have pushed the ice off Greenland's coast further than it's ever been observed, since satellite records began in the 1970s, the publication says.

    One scientist called the phenomenon "scary" in a Aug. 13 tweet. Thomas Lavergne, a scientist with the Norwegian Meteorological Institute, commented that the open water was "still there" and moving westward.

    The unusual melt is another example of a concerning trend in Greenland: Between 1995 and 2017, about 4,000 gigatons of ice in Greenland has been lost. That's about as much water as there is in Lake Michigan.

    Scientists say sunnier summer days have contributed to the large ice melt, which is helping to raise sea levels worldwide.
    I guess those "scientists" never heard of Archimides Principle. It's SEA ICE. All of it can melt and not raise sea levels by a millimeter.

    This is why people are so fucking ignorant about GW. Stop reading USA Today, CNN, and especially the Guardian and pick up a 6th grade science book instead.

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  • tbm3fan
    replied
    Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
    It means .... a lot!
    A lot of what?

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  • tbm3fan
    replied
    Originally posted by Wooglin View Post
    Great argument. Very convincing!
    ]
    I just stated a very typical use of data by those who know almost nothing about the science. Seen it used many times with other scientific data in other fields such as there was this one page out of a 200 page research paper that proves...blah, blah, blah.

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  • Wooglin
    replied
    Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Nothing but cherry picking. Now tell me you do know what a 5 degree celsius change means?
    Great argument. Very convincing!

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  • FORMBY
    replied
    Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Nothing but cherry picking. Now tell me you do know what a 5 degree celsius change means?
    It means .... a lot!

    Leave a comment:


  • tbm3fan
    replied
    Nothing but cherry picking. Now tell me you do know what a 5 degree celsius change means?

    Leave a comment:


  • gunnut
    replied
    So....it's late August, where are we at with the hurricane count?

    Remember after 2005 how all the so called "scientists" predicted hurricanes to be more frequent and more powerful?

    https://www.usnews.com/news/articles...due-to-warming

    http://www.climatecentral.org/news/s...orldwide-16204

    Actually both articles are based on the same study. I also found numerous other news articles from different sources all regurgitating the same view from roughly the same time, early 2013.

    We have had so far in 2018, 5 storms with 2 of them being hurricanes.

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  • Monash
    replied
    Surveys of the reef have shown that it has coped with multiple changes in environmental conditions on a geologic scale. Sonar scans and core drilling show that during ice ages, as sea levels decease the reef has 'migrated' out towards the edge of the continental shelf and also slightly northward towards warmer waters at the equator. During warmer periods as ocean levels rise it migrates closer to the new shore line into shallower water and extends southwards a little bit further. But the timescales involved are simply not noticeable to humans.

    The above doesn't mean however that the reef won't be damaged by rapid climate change, simply that it has the capacity to recover given enough time. On a global scale the problem with climate change is not so much its impact on the general environment but rather its impact on human civilization. Given time the ecology of the planet will always adapt, pine forests and tree ferns at the poles during periods of global warming, continental land bridges and a retreat to the towards the equator during cooling periods. IMO the problem lies elsewhere.

    Our cities unfortunately are not portable and all of humanities great population centers are largely located along fertile river valleys and other localized areas of high agricultural productivity. Change the climate slightly even for just a few years and you potentially change those fertile locations. For example there are no less than 5 major river systems shared by India and Pakistan, the Indus, Jhelum, Chenab, Ravi & Sutlej. These rivers are already under strain due to overpopulation, overuse and fluctuations in local climate conditions. They are home to hundreds of millions of people separated into hostile, nuclear armed states. What happens if/when climate change alters rainfall patters even lightly for decade or so? China is in an even worse position, a lot of it's existing fresh water resources are just about fully exploited already and heavily polluted due to boot due to industrial development - I doubt it would face collapse but it could make a play for water resources in other countries like Russia if pressed.

    For it's part the US is already suffering from a decline in the reliably of water resources in the south west and Mexico is even more vulnerable. You think you have an illegal immigration problem now? What happens if climatic variability kicks in in a big way south of the border?

    Point is, changes in local climatic conditions don't have to be extreme or even that long lasting if population levels in the areas concerned are already at or near maximum carrying capacity and water extraction has already peaked. Alternately more rain can be almost as bad since persistent flood events can also significantly reduce agricultural productivity along those same river valleys & flood plains. If the world had a population of 1 billion it woudn't necessary be a problem but 8-10 billion?
    Last edited by Monash; 21 Feb 18,, 09:09.

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  • tantalus
    replied
    To be fair, it is absolutely disgraceful, and while the peer review process is fundamentally flawed it may not be easily reformed. Anybody in academia knows this, so it's really quite ridiculous by the individuals in the university. I guess a case can be made that the strength of the current peer review process comes over time and collectively , while many individual papers lack quality and should never be published, over time there is a selection process that can deliver results (and dissenting voices) where you can then judge an entire literature on a specific area of research. In the end, a small percentage of papers have significant influence and the hope is they receive greater scrutiny.

    Also, I think its well established in Australia by the relevant expert academia that the situation with coral reefs is quite complex. There are multiple inter-related threats, both natural and human, our historical data sets are short, models crude, and often it's a change in diversity and species composition, not eradication, that is of greater concern, while the reefs are over huge geographical areas and depths so there is a lot of variation in vulnerability, damage and recovery, both spatially and temporally. In this sense, it makes the university's actions all the more bizarre.

    While the university's actions are troubling, they are also a conspicuous and less important part of the problem generally. The real censorship stems from a more insidious source, fear of judgement and persecution, that used to be mostly silent and discreet but now has a more visible angry cousin on the internet too.

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  • Wooglin
    replied
    Science or silence? My battle to question doomsayers about the Great Barrier Reef

    Around the world, people have heard about the impending extinction of the Great Barrier Reef: some 133,000 square miles of magnificent coral stretching for 1,400 miles off the northeast coast of Australia.

    The reef is supposedly almost dead from the combined effects of a warming climate, nutrient pollution from Australian farms, and smothering sediment from offshore dredging.

    Except that, as I have said publicly as a research scientist who has studied the reef for the past 30 years, all this most likely isn’t true.

    And just for saying that – and calling into question the kind of published science that has led to the gloomy predictions – I have been served with a gag order by my university. I am now having to sue for my right to have an ordinary scientific opinion.

    My emails have been searched. I was not allowed even to speak to my wife about the issue. I have been harangued by lawyers. And now I’m fighting back to assert my right to academic freedom and bring attention to the crisis of scientific truth.

    The problems I am facing are part of a “replication crisis” that is sweeping through science and is now a serious topic in major science journals. In major scientific trials that attempt to reproduce the results of scientific observations and measurements, it seems that around 50 percent of recently published science is wrong, because the results can’t be replicated by others.

    And if observations and measurements can’t be replicated, it isn’t really science – it is still, at best, hypothesis, or even just opinion. This is not a controversial topic anymore – science, or at least the system of checking the science we are using, is failing us.

    The crisis started in biomedical areas, where pharmaceutical companies in the past decade found that up to 80 percent of university and institutional science results that they tested were wrong. It is now recognized that the problem is much more widespread than the biomedical sciences. And that is where I got into big trouble.


    I have published numerous scientific papers showing that much of the “science” claiming damage to the reef is either plain wrong or greatly exaggerated. As just one example, coral growth rates that have supposedly collapsed along the reef have, if anything, increased slightly.

    Reefs that are supposedly smothered by dredging sediment actually contain great coral. And mass bleaching events along the reef that supposedly serve as evidence of permanent human-caused devastation are almost certainly completely natural and even cyclical.

    These allegedly major catastrophic effects that recent science says were almost unknown before the 1980s are mainly the result of a simple fact: large-scale marine science did not get started on the reef until the 1970s.

    By a decade later, studies of the reef had exploded, along with the number of marine biologists doing them. What all these scientists lacked, however, was historical perspective. There are almost no records of earlier eras to compare with current conditions. Thus, for many scientists studying reef problems, the results are unprecedented, and almost always seen as catastrophic and even world-threatening.

    The only problem is that it isn’t so. The Great Barrier Reef is in fact in excellent condition. It certainly goes through periods of destruction where huge areas of coral are killed from hurricanes, starfish plagues and coral bleaching. However, it largely regrows within a decade to its former glory. Some parts of the southern reef, for example, have seen a tripling of coral in six years after they were devastated by a particularly severe cyclone.

    Reefs have similarities to Australian forests, which require periodic bushfires. It looks terrible after the bushfire, but the forests always regrow. The ecosystem has evolved with these cycles of death and regrowth.

    The conflicting realities of the Great Barrier Reef point to a deeper problem. In science, consensus is not the same thing as truth. But consensus has come to play a controlling role in many areas of modern science. And if you go against the consensus you can suffer unpleasant consequences.

    The main system of science quality control is called peer review. Nowadays, it usually takes the form of a couple of anonymous reviewing scientists having a quick check over the work of a colleague in the field.

    Peer review is commonly understood as painstaking re-examination by highly qualified experts in academia that acts as a real check on mistaken work. It isn’t. In the real world, peer review is often cursory and not always even knowledgeable. It might take reviewers only a morning to do.

    Scientific results are rarely reanalyzed and experiments are not replicated. The types of checks that would be routine in private industry are just not done.


    I have asked the question: Is this good enough quality control to make environmental decisions worth billions of dollars that are now adversely affecting every major industry in northeast Australia?

    Our sugar industry has been told to make dramatic reductions in fertilizer application, potentially reducing productivity; our ports have dredging restrictions that threaten their productivity; scientists demand that coal mines be closed; and tourists are scared away because the reef is supposedly almost dead – not worth seeing anymore.

    Last August I made this point on Sky News in Australia in promotion of a chapter I wrote in “Climate Change: The Facts 2017,” published by the Australian free market think tank the Institute of Public Affairs.

    “The basic problem is that we can no longer trust the scientific organizations like the Australian Institute of Marine Science, even things like the Australian Research Council Centre of Excellence for Coral Reef Studies … the science is coming out not properly checked, tested or replicated and this is a great shame because we really need to be able to trust our scientific institutions and the fact is I do not think we can any more,” I said.

    The response to these comments by my employer, James Cook University, was extraordinary.

    Rather than measured argument, I was hit with a charge of academic serious misconduct for not being “collegial.”

    University authorities told me in August I was not allowed to mention the case or the charges to anybody – not even my wife.

    Then things got worse. With assistance from the Institute of Public Affairs, I have been pushing back against the charges and the gag order – leading the university to search my official emails for examples of where I had mentioned the case to other scientists, old friends, past students and my wife.

    I was then hit with 25 new allegations, mostly for just mentioning the case against me. The email search turned up nothing for which I feel ashamed. You can see for yourself.

    We filed in court in November. At that point the university backed away from firing me. But university officials issued a “Final Censure” in my employment file and told me to be silent about the allegations, and not to repeat my comments about the unreliability of institutional research.

    But they agreed that I could mention it to my wife, which was nice of them.

    I would rather be fired than accept these conditions. We are still pursuing the matter in court.

    This case may be about a single instance of alleged misconduct, but underlying it is an issue even bigger than our oceans. Ultimately, I am fighting for academic and scientific freedom, and the responsibility of universities to nurture the debate of difficult subjects without threat or intimidation.

    We may indeed have a Great Barrier Reef crisis, but the science is so flawed that it is impossible to tell its actual dimensions. What we do know for certain is that we have an academic freedom crisis that threatens the true life of science and threatens to smother our failing university system.

    Professor Peter Ridd leads the Marine Geophysical Laboratory, James Cook University, Australia and has authored over 100 scientific papers.
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/02/...-wind-and-oil/

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  • Wooglin
    replied
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Its at least as effective as responding to AGW true believers.
    Ha! So true!

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  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    i dunno about you, Wooglin, but responding to spam bots is probably not productive...:-)
    Its at least as effective as responding to AGW true believers.

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  • astralis
    replied
    i dunno about you, Wooglin, but responding to spam bots is probably not productive...:-)

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  • Wooglin
    replied
    Originally posted by Shilpa111
    Hi guys,Global warming is causing a set of changes to Earth's climate,"Green house effect" is a Global warming that happens the earth atmosphere trap heat,these gases in light but keep heat for escaping called a green house.
    SA 8000 Cost in Italy

    OHSAS 18001 Audit in Bahrain
    Ohhhhh! Thanks buddy. If only someone posted this at the beginning of the thread ten years ago... thanks for clearing that up.

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