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Covid Origins: Lab leak hypothesis

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    What to make of this ?

    Click image for larger version  Name:	sars cov2 variant.jpg Views:	0 Size:	58.5 KB ID:	1578616
    https://twitter.com/R_H_Ebright/stat...84211364757510


    This is layman's speak of what was officially said here

    What is the value of creating a variant with enhanced lethality?

    Ebright : For the researchers:
    (1) career advancement, and
    (2) transgression (the more transgressive, the more easily and more prominently publishable).

    For the funders: biodefense (bioweapons-agent discovery).
    ????

    Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Nov 21,, 22:49.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    Why can't we find any of it in the wild then ? They know the hosts of these viruses.
    I am NOT going to accuse extremely reputable scientists who came up with vaccines for ebola and other SARS-xxx pathogens of unethical wrongdoings when we have absolutely zero intel on the matter. It doesn't matter that we have not found it. What we do know that every spieces that was EVER in WIV was tested, including from the very regions where they were collected, and found lacking. What this means is that WIV CANNOT be the source. We have tested every knowable source of virus entry to the WIV and found lacking. Not one sample we've collected can be used as the basis for SARS-COV-2.

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    As to how you do it, serial passage. Tweak the virus. Infect twenty mice. Take the sickest one and stick in a batch of another twenty. Take the sickest one and put it in another batch and so on.

    If it does not work, then try a different tweak. Rinse & repeat. Why is this not plausible to you. Or do you have a source that says so.
    Do the freaking math. Takes 2 weeks for each generation (10 days incubation to full blown symptoms).

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    You are not making it per se, but you are assisting its evolution in a targeted way. That is how you bridge the 50 years gap.
    Given how many evolutionary dead ends you're going to encounter along the way, it will take you 100 years using this method. Nature got billions of animals to play with. You've got what? A few hundred at a time?

    Even a dumbass engineer like me can see the flaw in this horse puckey.

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    I'll stick with what Trump called it.
    The Martians have better odds at being right than Trump.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 23 Nov 21,, 15:38.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Of course it was genetic engineered. Mother Nature did it.
    Why can't we find any of it in the wild then ? They know the hosts of these viruses.

    Maybe i should rephrase that. The CCP won't allow outsiders into China to conduct such a hunt.

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    *** sigh *** Every bio weapons expert I've read STATED this is beyond current expertise. The gap is just too wide. Have you seen a chickensaurus yet? In theory we could do it? Have we? And we've been freaking trying.
    The one i quoted said there were no signs it was GM modified. The one that got falsely accused for Anthrax attack after 9/11 We've since gone beyond that.

    As to how you do it, serial passage. Tweak the virus. Infect twenty mice. Take the sickest one and stick in a batch of another twenty. Take the sickest one and put it in another batch and so on.

    If it does not work, then try a different tweak. Rinse & repeat. Why is this not plausible to you. Or do you have a source that says so.

    You are not making it per se, but you are assisting its evolution in a targeted way. That is how you bridge the 50 years gap.

    You can't make it otherwise. It would be a crap shoot.

    All thanks to Ralph Baric.

    Didn't you read the particles highlighting Dazak asking for grants from DARPA to do just this. He got turned down because they thought it was too dangerous.

    So it means it is possible then. Yes ?

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Ok, I have a theory that will explain it all. The Martians did it.
    I'll stick with what Trump called it.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Nov 21,, 22:03.

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  • Gun Grape
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post

    Ok, I have a theory that will explain it all. The Martians did it.
    Gotcha


    Attached Files

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    Yes, its not very long. Somebody should tell these folks to cease using double negatives in their sentences. Just check these out


    How do you read that ? double negative equals positive

    To me it reads....Most IC analysts assess with higher confidence that SARSCoV-2 was genetically engineered than not.


    Meaning it was GM
    Of course it was genetic engineered. Mother Nature did it.

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    They acknowledge that GM may not be detectable. You still cannot rule out man made because the existing knowledge on the subject is as yet incomplete

    IC gives equal weighting to both natural and man made but i would say the preponderance of evidence and the CCP's behaviour thus far makes it more than even it was man made. Because if it was the other way CCP would have spared no efforts to exonerate themselves.
    *** sigh *** Every bio weapons expert I've read STATED this is beyond current expertise. The gap is just too wide. Have you seen a chickensaurus yet? In theory we could do it? Have we? And we've been freaking trying.

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    There is no way this thing becomes so infectious and spreads like wildfire without leaving traces. So far there is no evidence of outbreaks prior to that date.

    What more do you want ? NO NATURALLY OCURRING VIRUS can pull off this act.

    This was the clincher made by that retired biology prof on Bill Maher's show that i linked few months back.



    Doesn't this make it clearer still it was not natural ? because they could not find an intermediate host.

    It just emerged like that and even after checking over 80k species they still could not detect it in the wild.

    For so many intel agencies i don't see their contribution here as adding much to what we know already.

    The only takeaway from this IC effort is lab leak possibility is NOW on the table and its official.
    Ok, I have a theory that will explain it all. The Martians did it.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 22 Nov 21,, 20:33.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Did you even read the report?
    Yes, its not very long. Somebody should tell these folks to cease using double negatives in their sentences. Just check these out

    Most IC analysts assess with low confidence that SARSCoV-2 was not genetically engineered
    How do you read that ? double negative equals positive

    To me it reads....Most IC analysts assess with higher confidence that SARSCoV-2 was genetically engineered than not.

    IC analysts do not have higher confidence that SARSCoV-2 was not genetically engineered
    Meaning it was GM

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Do you know what it says?

    Here, let me point it out to you

    Can you understand what the above paragraph is saying? That somehow that WIV got a hold of a naturally occurring SARS-COV-2 and unwittingly spread it. In short, it is STILL NOT FREAKING MAN-MADE!
    See this bit

    IC analysts do not have higher confidence that SARSCoV-2 was not genetically engineered because some genetic engineering techniques can make modifications difficult to identify and we have gaps in our knowledge of naturally occurring coronaviruses.

     Some genetic engineering techniques may make genetically modified viruses indistinguishable from natural viruses, according to academic journal articles. For instance, a 2017 dissertation by a WIV student showed that reverse genetic cloning techniques—which are standard techniques used in advanced molecular laboratories—left no trace of genetic modification of SARS-like coronaviruses.

     It will be difficult to increase our confidence that the distinguishing features in SARS-CoV-2 emerged naturally without a better understanding of the diversity of coronaviruses in nature and how often recombination occurs during co-infection of multiple coronaviruses within a particular host. For example, academic literature has indicated that a FCS had previously been inserted into SARS-CoV-1, the causative agent of SARS, complicating differentiation of how such a feature may have appeared.
    They acknowledge that GM may not be detectable. You still cannot rule out man made because the existing knowledge on the subject is as yet incomplete

    IC gives equal weighting to both natural and man made but i would say the preponderance of evidence and the CCP's behaviour thus far makes it more than even it was man made. Because if it was the other way CCP would have spared no efforts to exonerate themselves.

    The IC assesses that SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, probably emerged and infected humans through an initial small-scale exposure that occurred no later than November 2019 with the first known cluster of COVID-19 cases arising in Wuhan, China in December 2019
    There is no way this thing becomes so infectious and spreads like wildfire without leaving traces. So far there is no evidence of outbreaks prior to that date.

    What more do you want ? NO NATURALLY OCURRING VIRUS can pull off this act.

    This was the clincher made by that retired biology prof on Bill Maher's show that i linked few months back.

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Here's another strike from the lab leak theory. Every single speices that ever went into WIV has been tested, including animals from the specific regions that the lab collected from. Zippo, nadda, zilch, booboo, empty handed, no jackpot, goose egg, not even a pair of deuses of an intermediate speices.
    Doesn't this make it clearer still it was not natural ? because they could not find an intermediate host.

    It just emerged like that and even after checking over 80k species they still could not detect it in the wild.

    For so many intel agencies i don't see their contribution here as adding much to what we know already.

    The only takeaway from this IC effort is lab leak possibility is NOW on the table and its official.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Nov 21,, 15:23.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Did you even read the report? Do you know what it says?

    Here, let me point it out to you

    WIV Research Includes Work With Animals That Carry Relatives of SARS-CoV-2

    The analysts that find the laboratory-associated origin theory most likely assess that WIV researchers’ inherently risky work with coronaviruses provided numerous opportunities for them to unwittingly become infected with SARS-CoV-2. Although the IC has no indications that WIV research involved SARS-CoV-2 or a close progenitor virus, these analysts note that it is plausible that researchers may have unwittingly exposed themselves to the virus without sequencing it during experiments or sampling activities, possibly resulting in asymptomatic or mild infection. Academic literature indicates that WIV researchers conducted research with bat coronaviruses or collected samples from species that are known to carry close relatives of SARS-CoV-2
    Can you understand what the above paragraph is saying? That somehow that WIV got a hold of a naturally occurring SARS-COV-2 and unwittingly spread it. In short, it is STILL NOT FREAKING MAN-MADE!

    Here's another strike from the lab leak theory. Every single speices that ever went into WIV has been tested, including animals from the specific regions that the lab collected from. Zippo, nadda, zilch, booboo, empty handed, no jackpot, goose egg, not even a pair of deuses of an intermediate speices.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 22 Nov 21,, 09:12.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    DNI has an updated report (pdf)

    After examining all available intelligence reporting and other information, though, the IC remains divided on the most likely origin of COVID-19. All agencies assess that two hypotheses are plausible: natural exposure to an infected animal and a laboratory-associated incident.

    IC analysts assess that a natural origin and a laboratory associated incident are both plausible hypotheses for how SARS-CoV-2 first infected humans
    Good, so they still find lab leak is plausible.

    I don't find much new info in this 'updated' doc from the DNI

    They still list RATG13 as most closely related when that Laos one recently found is closer still.

    Appendix B says they disagree with Dr. Yan's contention that it is a weapon ie. intentional release and go on to say 'some' who reviewed her work deemed it 'scientifically unsound'. But her position on man made is still good.

    They don't agree with the withdrawn paper from Delhi University.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    The Covid lab leak theory just got even stronger | Spectator UK | Nov 21 2021

    They found a bat virus in Laos that matches slightly closer than the RATG13 from Yunan.

    Only problem is it lacks these furin cleavage sites.

    To date they can't find any SARS viruses in the wild that have that feature.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Nov 21,, 03:17.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Where Are the Wuhan Subpoenas? | WSJ Editorial | Oct 27 2021

    U.S. funding for risky Chinese virus research deserves investigation.

    By
    The Editorial Board
    Oct. 27, 2021 6:37 pm ET

    Chinese stonewalling means it’s unlikely the world will ever know Covid-19’s exact origins. Yet many avenues of investigation remain unexplored that could yield lessons for the future.

    Until this year much of the political and scientific establishment wrote off the idea that Covid-19 began circulating in China after an accidental lab leak. This groupthink was inexcusable, given that the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) for years had studied and modified bat coronaviruses.

    Hundreds of pages of documents have shown how the U.S. nonprofit EcoHealth Alliance received funding from the National Institutes of Health to work with the WIV. A grant in 2014 gave the Chinese institution some $600,000 for “Understanding the Risk of Bat Coronavirus Emergence.” New developments have strengthened the already solid case for a Congressional investigation.

    Last week House Oversight Committee Republicans released an NIH letter they said confirmed “EcoHealth and the WIV conducted GOF research on bat coronaviruses.” (GOF means gain-of-function research, which can make viruses more deadly or infectious.) The following day the Intercept, a left-leaning digital publication, wrote that annual grant reports showed that EcoHealth and WIV “were engaged in risky experiments and that the NIH may not have been fully aware of these activities.”

    Anthony Fauci and NIH Director Francis Collins have insisted that their organizations didn’t fund gain-of-function research, which was banned in the U.S. from 2014-2017. Dr. Fauci has spoken to Congress this year and remains firm, likely betting that his de facto affiliation with Democrats shields him from real scrutiny. But Americans deserve to know whether taxpayer dollars funded risky research that could have started a pandemic.

    The intelligence community’s 90-day Covid-19 origins review was a muddle. The Chinese Communist Party has done everything it can to thwart a real investigation. The World Health Organization’s efforts have been undermined by conflicts of interest. EcoHealth Alliance chief Peter Daszak was appointed to the expert group that visited China this year, and several proposed members for the new Scientific Advisory Group for the Origins of Novel Pathogens have conflicts as well.


    EcoHealth Alliance must be held accountable for lying to the federal government about what exactly they were using American taxpayer money for,” Rep. Michael McCaul said this week, reiterating his call for Mr. Daszak to be subpoenaed. Mr. Daszak has publicly dismissed the lab-leak theory while organizing scientists behind the scenes to rally against it. He and key subordinates should share all documents related to the WIV and speak under oath about their work.

    This should be followed by a comprehensive investigation into the federal process that led to Mr. Daszak’s outfit and the WIV being rewarded taxpayer dollars. So far Democrats don’t seem interested, perhaps because the populist right has made this a cause. It’s scandalous that Congress isn’t using its power to do more, and Republicans should make this a campaign issue.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by tantalus View Post
    It's now time for western media to re-question every scientist off that original lancet letter and every scientist who dismissed this.
    Hear hear

    Originally posted by tantalus View Post
    Its time for journalists to do their jobs and follow up.
    Here's Sharri



    Happy Sky Australia released it. Thought this would be subscribers only.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by tantalus View Post
    It's now time for western media to re-question every scientist off that original lancet letter and and every scientist who dismissed this. Its time for journalists to do their jobs and follow up.
    I'll put this one to rest.

    1) The project never got off the ground
    2) We still have not been able to spread SARS-COV-2 onto humanized mice. We can infect individual mice and there is some spread but the virus dies out real fast and does not spread amongst the observed mice population and we're not talking the Wuhan lab here but every lab working around the world.

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  • tantalus
    replied
    It's now time for western media to re-question every scientist off that original lancet letter and every scientist who dismissed this. Its time for journalists to do their jobs and follow up.
    Last edited by tantalus; 29 Sep 21,, 18:30.

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  • tantalus
    replied
    Drastic have really outdone themselves this time

    https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4298023

    The only question you should be asking yourself now is how in the fuck was this not disclosed publicly by someone in early 2020. Dasnak has acknowledged the proposal is real.
    Last edited by tantalus; 29 Sep 21,, 18:17.

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  • tantalus
    replied
    I cant quite believe to be honest. Its like a spoof.
    Originally posted by tantalus View Post
    The reality is by serial poassaging scientists can alter viral sequences that realsitically are not detectable. The earlier spring papers by western scientists that shaped the media narrative fail to point this obvious reality and sar cov 2 has features that are known in the scientific community to help make them spread in humans. They could have occured naturally through recombination but since sar cov 2 disccovered tricks we are aware of and not some new novel approach it equally means it could be lab.


    Controversially, right in the middle of the spike gene of SARS-CoV-2 lurks a surprise. Unlike other SARS-like coronaviruses so far described, including RaTG13 and the pangolin viruses, SARS-CoV-2 has an extra 12 digits inserted, creating a “furin cleavage site”. This is a feature found in other pathogenic coronaviruses such as Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome (MERS), and is known to make viruses more capable of infecting different tissues in the body. Yet, this remarkable insertion was not mentioned in either of the WIV’s first covid-19 papers despite a close analysis of the spike gene. It will be near impossible to definitively determine whether this furin cleavage site arose naturally or artificially. However, its omission from key WIV covid-19 papers is curious.

    The practices of building chimera coronaviruses (made from parts of multiple viruses), sometimes leaving no trace of manipulation, or inserting a furin cleavage site into the spike protein of SARS virus, are not new. These experiments have been conducted in select laboratories such as at the WIV for the purpose of understanding how novel SARS viruses could spill over into humans. The ultimate goal is to create a universal vaccine for all SARS-like viruses.

    The scientists might find it unbearable if they instead caused a pandemic. But they did not find it unthinkable. In a 2015 article co-authored by Dr Shi and Dr Ralph Baric of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (the heads of two leading SARS coronavirus research groups) these words appear: “scientific review panels may deem similar studies building chimeric viruses based on circulating strains too risky to pursue… the potential to prepare for and mitigate future outbreaks must be weighed against the risk of creating more dangerous pathogens.
    https://www.rationaloptimist.com/blo...pe-from-a-lab/
    So Shi (the bat lady), and the eco alliance asked for funding to insert a mers furin cleavage site into a sars coronavirus using humanised mice in 2018, they are all there in the one funding request to DARPA. You couldnt write it.
    Last edited by tantalus; 29 Sep 21,, 18:19.

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