Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Covid Origins: Lab leak hypothesis

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    I could subscribe to accidental lab leak but weaponizing COVID is just too far out in looney bin territory. Two weeks incubation (100% combat effectiveness), 98% survival rate and 75% combat effectiveness while sick. This is a weak ass weapon that could not, would not decide a battle, let alone a war.
    Chimo

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      I could subscribe to accidental lab leak but weaponizing COVID is just too far out in looney bin territory.
      Until recently we weren't even allowed to talk about the lab leak hypothesis.

      Trump's intel guys told him they could not rule out a lab leak. He went ahead and blurted out it was just that.

      For a lot of people this is obvious. I see a penguin walking around my city I will assume it escaped from a zoo. No way it arrived on its own.

      To say bioweapon is to ascribe intent. We don't have evidence for that. Everything is circumstantial. Even lab leak.

      What fuels this rhetoric is the reluctance of the CCP to cooperate. What comes across is cover up this, silence that.

      The way the 50 centers explain it is China is cooperating but will not allow malicious rumour mongering. Why ? What are they afraid of ?

      The way info war works is if you do not put out a defendable narrative then fiction will be written and repeat it enough times it becomes fact.

      You see why people say bioweapon and the discussion is what do we do in the future if indeed such an event were to occur.

      When i watch discussions i find people ascribe the only reason to do gain of function research is to weaponise. Intent asserted again.

      No consideration is given to other reasons. Research to better understand more virulent strains. How likely they are to emerge and how to defend against.

      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      Two weeks incubation (100% combat effectiveness), 98% survival rate and 75% combat effectiveness while sick. This is a weak ass weapon that could not, would not decide a battle, let alone a war.
      I don't know about that. It disabled two aircraft carriers. Has killed hundreds of thousands and cost the global economy trillions in lost productivity.

      The billion/trillion dollar stimulus packages that had to be passed around the world just to ensure chaos would not break out in the streets.

      Countless businesses had to close because they could not survive without a cash flow.

      Think of the psychological impact.

      And we don't know when its going to end.

      Vaccines came out sooner than expected which is good news.

      Herd immunity will build up faster now.
      Last edited by Double Edge; 22 May 21,, 20:49.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        I don't know about that. It disabled two aircraft carriers.
        No, it did not. It was precaution. Not damage. At no time were the carriers combat ineffective.

        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        Has killed hundreds of thousands and cost the global economy trillions.

        Think of the psychological impact.

        And we don't know when its going to end.

        Vaccines came out sooner than expected which is the good news.

        Herd immunity will build up faster now.
        In a word, panic. Dysentery kills a lot more people per year and a cure is well known for over a 1000 years - clean water. Yet, no panic and hoe hum.
        Chimo

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          No, it did not. It was precaution. Not damage. At no time were the carriers combat ineffective.
          Job of the military is to defend territory and people. This virus bypassed the guys in uniform as if they weren't even there.

          Instead of body bags returning we see civvies dying at home or hospitals.

          How do you defend against a bio attack ??

          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          In a word, panic. Dysentery kills a lot more people per year and a cure is well known for over a 1000 years - clean water. Yet, no panic and hoe hum.
          The effect is as disruptive as if a low intensity war broke out every where.

          India loses anywhere from 200 - 400k in terms of mortality every year. TB + HIV accounts for 10k annual.

          From that perspective Covid deaths were fewer last year and more this year won't make too much of an impact.

          They're talking about kids being susceptible now.

          Last year people were more confident about the children.

          There is no good way to deal with pandemic. Either you get hit hard up front or defer it over time
          Last edited by Double Edge; 22 May 21,, 21:23.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            I could subscribe to accidental lab leak but weaponizing COVID is just too far out in looney bin territory. Two weeks incubation (100% combat effectiveness), 98% survival rate and 75% combat effectiveness while sick. This is a weak ass weapon that could not, would not decide a battle, let alone a war.
            It seems highly improbable that covid 19 is linked to bioweapons research. Not zero, but very very close. Can't completely rule out it was weapons research, but its just addiding complexity where its not needed, its a subset, and by definition less likely, and with the only evidence being that the chinese military may have also been active in the labs in Wuhan as per Pompeos fact sheet.

            Ofcourse militaries all over the world research and store viruses, even if its just to figure out what other militaries or even future terroriist organisations might be capable of. Or just to arm themselves with knowledge of how nature could destabilise their country or military via a natural pandemic. No reason why such research couldnt in theory leak. And we would be foolish to ignore that risk also.

            I do think the west will be thinking again about the threat viruses may prove to be as a miltary weapon. China fared far better, and will most likely fare even better in the years to come economically in compaison to the USA. Economies can also win wars given enough time. We might have thought it wouldnt be viable as it would infect all sides, now we have to give the matter more consideration. Furthermore the bioweapons of the future may be more targetted, while thats a threat for the next generation of leaders, this generation badly need to begin negotiations on global treaties that safeguard the entire species and help out the ones they pass the baton too.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              Job of the military is to defend territory and people. This virus bypassed the guys in uniform as if they weren't even there.

              Instead of body bags returning we see civvies dying at home or hospitals.

              How do you defend against a bio attack ??
              Nuclear retalliation. We equate chemical and biological attacks on par with nuclear strikes.

              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              The effect is as disruptive as if a low intensity war broke out every where.
              Nobody starts a war they don't at least have a chance of winning. This thing hurt China as much as anyone else.

              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              India loses anywhere from 200 - 400k in terms of mortality every year. TB + HIV accounts for 10k annual.

              From that perspective Covid deaths were fewer last year and more this year won't make too much of an impact.

              They're talking about kids being susceptible now.

              Last year people were more confident about the children.

              There is no good way to deal with pandemic. Either you get hit hard up front or defer it over time
              Again, in terms of weapons. In this case, WMD. The response is nuclear. This virus is incapable of stopping nuclear retalliation.
              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 22 May 21,, 23:12.
              Chimo

              Comment


              • #37
                More theatre than substance. Gripping. Award winning even.



                Are you sending money to wuhan? No we don't send money to wuhan
                You sending it through Eco health ,Fauci:Let me tell you why it's done
                If the ruling party isn't talking about then it does not count.



                The select committee on corona virus won't look into how corona virus started...
                The representative from Ohio is making perfect sense. The questions that every one is asking

                Doesn't count
                Last edited by Double Edge; 23 May 21,, 01:39.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                  I do think the west will be thinking again about the threat viruses may prove to be as a miltary weapon. China fared far better, and will most likely fare even better in the years to come economically in compaison to the USA. Economies can also win wars given enough time. We might have thought it wouldnt be viable as it would infect all sides, now we have to give the matter more consideration. Furthermore the bioweapons of the future may be more targetted, while thats a threat for the next generation of leaders, this generation badly need to begin negotiations on global treaties that safeguard the entire species and help out the ones they pass the baton too.
                  I thought they did at the start last year and was hoping they did because then we all had a chance.

                  But nobody believed the numbers. And people dispute that things are as rosy as the CCP paints it.

                  It seems inconceivable they could escape unscathed.

                  This virus goes after all populations that escaped previous waves. Especially those that think they escaped it.

                  In India, last year it was the working classes that were affected, this year its infecting the middle classes and the working classes seem less affected.

                  China's vaccine does not seem to be more than 50% effective from what data they have released so their population is vulnerable.

                  An argument bioweapon theory supporters use is why is every one else affected but China ?

                  India did far more than China when it came to lock downs.

                  We did not have a lock down. We shut the entire country down for a couple of months.

                  Our numbers today are out there for the world to see
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 23 May 21,, 03:28.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post

                    I thought they did at the start last year and was hoping they did because then we all had a chance.

                    But nobody believed the numbers. And people dispute that things are as rosy as the CCP paints it.

                    It seems inconceivable they could escape unscathed.

                    This virus goes after all populations that escaped previous waves. Especially those that think they escaped it.

                    In India, last year it was the working classes that were affected, this year its infecting the middle classes and the working classes seem less affected.

                    China's vaccine does not seem to be more than 50% effective from what data they have released so their population is vulnerable.

                    An argument bioweapon theory supporters use is why is every one else affected but China ?

                    India did far more than China when it came to lock downs.

                    We did not have a lock down. We shut the entire country down for a couple of months.

                    Our numbers today are out there for the world to see
                    With the virus its how you perform when you have the numbers very low that seperates the big winners from the big losers, not getting it there. Chinas numbers from the beginning were clearly a lie, unclear how big, but it seems to be the case that they crushed the epidemic and have continued to strangle it, foot on the neck, once never released, things get easier, as long as they can keep that up for another year, no reason why they cant double back and booster the population to increase protection further. If they had a large second wave one would imagine we would know. But ofcourse they are very good at controlling the narrative. It loos like they will benefit on bottom line growth and deficit spending vs the USA, should be a meaningful effect in the years to come in terms of the chinese economy outgrowing the USA.

                    I agree though that the USA has basically taken the damage upfront so the next 12 months will be more challenging for China than the USA, same for australia. We will have to wait and see. Australia as a free nation will find it a particular pain if their vaccine program continues to be slow.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Double Edge View Post


                      An argument bioweapon theory supporters use is why is every one else affected but China ?
                      Not much of an argument to me.


                      Beacause they are autocratic and restricted peopls freedoms to crush the epidemic, and then continued to restrict peoples freedoms to control outbreaks when they were small. And they executed on this premise at a high level. Batch testing on whole populations, severe local lockdowns, docile population, and presumably real threats for non compliance.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The wall street journal is reporting that 3 of the sick lab workers were actually hospitalized in the same week in the autumn of 2019, which doesnt fit the profile of seaosnal illness, again merely suggestive. Perhaps this is the biden admin dialling up the heat.

                        Fauci has also said he is not convinced that covid 19 arose naturally. Either he sees the writing on the wall from the Science letter or more likely the machinations within the biden admin. I imagine there will be a desire to get on the right side of this and not be the last one off. The last ones to get off will definitely be the media but this dam has been ready to burst for months, I keep predicting it will and then it all goes quite again, but Fauci seems to be massively influential on the USA media.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                          The wall street journal is reporting that 3 of the sick lab workers were actually hospitalized in the same week in the autumn of 2019, which doesnt fit the profile of seaosnal illness, again merely suggestive. Perhaps this is the biden admin dialling up the heat.

                          Fauci has also said he is not convinced that covid 19 arose naturally. Either he sees the writing on the wall from the Science letter or more likely the machinations within the biden admin. I imagine there will be a desire to get on the right side of this and not be the last one off. The last ones to get off will definitely be the media but this dam has been ready to burst for months, I keep predicting it will and then it all goes quite again, but Fauci seems to be massively influential on the USA media.
                          Media is talking about it. Opposition is talking about it.

                          Intelligence on Sick Staff at Wuhan Lab Fuels Debate On Covid-19 Origin | WSJ | May 23 2021

                          Current and former officials familiar with the intelligence about the lab researchers expressed differing views about the strength of the supporting evidence for the assessment. One person said that it was provided by an international partner and was potentially significant but still in need of further investigation and additional corroboration.

                          Another person described the intelligence as stronger. “The information that we had coming from the various sources was of exquisite quality. It was very precise. What it didn’t tell you was exactly why they got sick,” he said, referring to the researchers.

                          The Biden administration declined to comment on the intelligence but said that all technically credible theories on the origin of the pandemic should be investigated by the WHO and international experts.

                          “We continue to have serious questions about the earliest days of the Covid-19 pandemic, including its origins within the People’s Republic of China,” said a spokeswoman for the National Security Council.

                          “We’re not going to make pronouncements that prejudge an ongoing WHO study into the source of SARS-CoV-2,” the spokeswoman said. “As a matter of policy we never comment on intelligence issues.”
                          But no one in USG is saying anything.

                          ok, so when is this WHO study going to conclude ?

                          Beijing has also asserted that the virus could have originated outside China, including at a lab at the Fort Detrick military base in Maryland, and called for the WHO to investigate early Covid outbreaks in other countries.

                          Most scientists say they have seen nothing to corroborate the idea that the virus came from a U.S. military lab, and the White House has said there are no credible reasons to investigate it.
                          Nothing seen around Ft. Detrick.

                          Members of the WHO-led team said Chinese counterparts had identified 92 potential Covid-19 cases among some 76,000 people who fell sick between October and early December 2019, but turned down requests to share raw data on the larger group. That data would help the WHO-led team understand why China sought to only test those 92 people for antibodies.

                          Team members also said they asked for access to a Wuhan blood bank to test samples from before December 2019 for antibodies. Chinese authorities declined at first, citing privacy concerns, then agreed, but have yet to provide that access, team members say.
                          They won't reveal why those 92 were tested.



                          Can't prevent the next pandemic if we don't understand how this one got going.
                          Last edited by Double Edge; 24 May 21,, 02:49.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tantalus View Post

                            Not much of an argument to me.
                            ok

                            Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                            Beacause they are autocratic and restricted peopls freedoms to crush the epidemic, and then continued to restrict peoples freedoms to control outbreaks when they were small. And they executed on this premise at a high level. Batch testing on whole populations, severe local lockdowns, docile population, and presumably real threats for non compliance.
                            here's the thing, if they are the only country to show positive growth last year it means they allowed their people to move around.

                            Moving people means more chances to spread. That's the case for every other country.

                            There were some flutters last year. Some locked down areas in Beijing or Wuhan. Nothing major. Certainly no city wide lock downs.

                            They didn't do anything more restrictive than India. Yet they have no second wave.

                            Maybe its about to come, maybe its not.

                            They stopped counting asymptomatics last year in March. So that brings down infected numbers a great deal.

                            I was listening to a swiss immunologist last summer who said asymptomatics cannot spread viable virus. They show up positive because the test detects the virus RNA but what the test cannot distinguish is whether the virus is viable.

                            No other country that i know off does not list asymptomatics, test shows up positive then it enters the stats.



                            Unannounced mandatory testing continues in Hong Kong. Locals have coined these events 'ambush lockdowns'. The man is saying, "This area has been sealed off. Residents are required to take a test. Staff will come & knock on your door..." February 6, 2021 Wah Fat Building on Ma Hang Chung Road, To Kwa Wan neighborhood, Hong Kong
                            They are aggressive with testing. What happened is some people tested positive in an area, more cases showed up they decided to cordon off the area. It now becomes a cluster. This is SOP is many countries. Posted a video of a tower block getting the same treatment in Australia last year.

                            I remember this happening in some parts of my city during the early days of the lockdown last year.

                            This year the whole city is infected and locked down until further notice so there are no quarantined areas.

                            I will admit its difficult to do consistently over time. There is push back from the public. Nobody likes it.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 24 May 21,, 03:50.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              People are misconstruing what this prof is saying. When he says biological war, he means the one launched on CHINA !!!

                              Source

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	china won.jpg Views:	0 Size:	132.4 KB ID:	1573672
                              Last edited by Double Edge; 24 May 21,, 04:01.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                ok


                                here's the thing, if they are the only country to show positive growth last year it means they allowed their people to move around.

                                Moving people means more chances to spread. That's the case for every other country.

                                There were some flutters last year. Some locked down areas in Beijing or Wuhan. Nothing major. Certainly no city wide lock downs.

                                They didn't do anything more restrictive than India. Yet they have no second wave.

                                Maybe its about to come, maybe its not.

                                They stopped counting asymptomatics last year in March. So that brings down infected numbers a great deal.

                                I was listening to a swiss immunologist last summer who said asymptomatics cannot spread viable virus. They show up positive because the test detects the virus RNA but what the test cannot distinguish is whether the virus is viable.

                                No other country that i know off does not list asymptomatics, test shows up positive then it enters the stats.





                                They are aggressive with testing. What happened is some people tested positive in an area, more cases showed up they decided to cordon off the area. It now becomes a cluster. This is SOP is many countries. Posted a video of a tower block getting the same treatment in Australia last year.

                                I remember this happening in some parts of my city during the early days of the lockdown last year.

                                This year the whole city is infected and locked down until further notice so there are no quarantined areas.

                                I will admit its difficult to do consistently over time. There is push back from the public. Nobody likes it.
                                This isnt my take on the chinese approach but perhaps I have it wrong. From the outside its seems they did insane city wide lockdowns multiple times last year including Bejing. They would then test the entire city and pool tests, test 10 people, put them into single tube and test it, if positive ten go back and test all 10, only works when majority test negative, as in over 90%, realistically over 99%. Batch testing also captures asymptomatic.The key for China was they consistently exceuted this strategy upon first case detected, no excuse , no delays. Given what the aussies achieved I dont find it hard to believe that China achieved even more with autocratic advantages. Countires like India didnt try to control covid when they detected a single case or tiny cluster.

                                I cant rule out the ccp have been lying since the first wave. But its plausible to me that they executed the reported approach and that it has been largely as successful as reported.
                                Last edited by tantalus; 24 May 21,, 18:51.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X