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Covid Origins: Lab leak hypothesis

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  • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
    Fauci lied, according to the intercept. Not just gain-of-function research but specifically gauging the "spillover potential".

    Details Emerge About Coronavirus Research at Chinese Lab (theintercept.com)

    Interesting to watch the Intercept completely reverse narrative within 2 months. I guess the Biden regime has chosen to distance itself.

    Rand Paul’s Attack on Fauci Chills Scientific Debate Over Gain-of-Function Research (theintercept.com)
    Sorry, Iain, I must be dense but can you point out where the smoking gun is? If I understand things, manufacture means that they grow the virus instead of cultivating it in the wild, not necessarily means that they altered the virus. Gain-of-function, as I understand it, means an ability unseen before.
    Chimo

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    • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      Sorry, Iain, I must be dense but can you point out where the smoking gun is? If I understand things, manufacture means that they grow the virus instead of cultivating it in the wild, not necessarily means that they altered the virus. Gain-of-function, as I understand it, means an ability unseen before.
      Gain of function research specifically deals with altering the genetic characteristics (transmissibility, which hosts it can infect, disease progression etc.) of the pathogen. This is not something that is illegal. It is done on a variety of pathogens by researchers in order to predict what kind of microbes may appear in the future and to find treatments against them. The problem in this case is it appears Fauci might have been lying when he said that the US govt. wasn't financing any such research on Coronaviruses in the Wuhan Lab.

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      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        Sorry, Iain, I must be dense but can you point out where the smoking gun is? If I understand things, manufacture means that they grow the virus instead of cultivating it in the wild, not necessarily means that they altered the virus. Gain-of-function, as I understand it, means an ability unseen before.
        As firestorm said.

        This explains the issue with Fauci

        A trove of newly released documents detailing U.S.-funded coronavirus research in China prior to the COVID-19 pandemic shows that Dr. Anthony Fauci was “untruthful” when he claimed that his agency did not finance gain-of-function research in Wuhan, an infectious disease expert says.

        Documents published by The Intercept on Sunday show that Fauci’s agency, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, provided federal funds to the U.S. nonprofit group EcoHealth Alliance and the Wuhan Institute of Virology to construct laboratory-generated SARS- and MERS-related coronaviruses that demonstrated enhanced pathogenicity in humanized mice cells, according to Rutgers University professor of chemical biology Richard Ebright.

        The documents make it clear that assertions by the [National Institutes of Health] director, Francis Collins, and the [National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases] director, Anthony Fauci, that the NIH did not support gain-of-function research or potential pandemic pathogen enhancement at [the Wuhan Institute of Virology] are untruthful,” Ebright said in a tweet Sunday evening.

        [“Gain of function” describes a risky process of making a disease more dangerous or contagious for the purpose of studying a response.]

        Fauci said during a congressional hearing in May that NIH “categorically has not funded gain-of-function research to be conducted at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.”
        THis is not efvident BTW that the virus originated in the Wuhan institute, simply that Fauci lied to Rand Paul over the funding and research, specifically gain-of-function he was signing off.
        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

        Leibniz

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        • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
          Fauci lied, according to the intercept. Not just gain-of-function research but specifically gauging the "spillover potential".

          Details Emerge About Coronavirus Research at Chinese Lab (theintercept.com)
          I knew you'd be on top of this. Was just about to post this article

          So here is Richard Ebright's twitter thread which concludes with the following

          The documents make it clear that assertions by the NIH Director, Francis Collins, and the NIAID Director, Anthony Fauci, that the NIH did not support gain-of-function research or potential pandemic pathogen enhancement at WIV are untruthful.
          We still can't make any headway with this .... whether US funding helped create the virus that infected the world ? that argument is still making its way through semantics.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Sep 21,, 23:21.

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          • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            Sorry, Iain, I must be dense but can you point out where the smoking gun is? If I understand things, manufacture means that they grow the virus instead of cultivating it in the wild, not necessarily means that they altered the virus. Gain-of-function, as I understand it, means an ability unseen before.
            The trick isn't the virus. Its the mice. Unless you have a subject to test and confirm no amount of virus tinkering will lead to something tangible.

            You cannot manufacture a virus through serial passage and have it be dangerous to humans without those mice. That is if we are talking corona viruses. They learnt how to make the mice more human like from Ralph Baric.

            This virus knows how to infect human lung cells and efficiently deliver its payload. It did not take much time in the wild to learn those tricks.

            Because it got its training IN A LAB.
            Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Sep 21,, 23:28.

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            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              This virus knows how to infect human lung cells and efficiently deliver its payload. It did not take much time in the wild to learn those tricks.

              Because it got its training IN A LAB.
              Prove it. Hell, I will even go further than that. Show me ANY hint that SARS-COV-2 was EVER in WIV.

              I also get why the Chinese are acting this way. This is an institute with Top of the Line safety measures and protocals, manned by some of the most prestigious virologists on the planet, coming up with vaccines and cures for Ebola and SARS. And the West insulted them that they don't know their jobs and that they didn't do their jobs right despite the fact not one bug has ever been documented of escaping the place. The WIV lead the world in bug research and safety procedures and we're calling them garbage collectors who stinked up the world.

              And you want their help to prove that they are the garbage men you say they are? Why would any professional put up with that shit?
              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 09 Sep 21,, 17:15.
              Chimo

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              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post

                This virus knows how to infect human lung cells and efficiently deliver its payload. It did not take much time in the wild to learn those tricks.

                Because it got its training IN A LAB.
                Thus far there is absolutely no evidence that it adapted in the wild, it simply arrived perfectly formed for human transmission.

                There is also little to no chance to investigate if it did develop through cross species transmission, as the Chinese govt. wont allow investigation.

                The end result is therefore stalemate, and neither side can claim certainty.

                Those claiming with certainty that it developed naturally are political, not scientific.
                In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                Leibniz

                Comment


                • The problem of course is proving the zoonotic transfer. Both SARS and MERS have been shown to develop via intermediaries, civets and raccoon dogs for SARS, camels for MERS.

                  But recently there has been renewed debate over the origin. On May 14 the journal Science published a letter from 18 scientists calling for “more investigation” to determine how the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic began. “Theories of accidental release from a lab and zoonotic spillover both remain viable,” they wrote. “Knowing how COVID-19 emerged is critical for informing global strategies to mitigate the risk of future outbreaks.”
                  Note, the article quoted above makes statements based on Fauci's public statements and testimony which are now known to be false.
                  In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                  Leibniz

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Firestorm View Post

                    Gain of function research specifically deals with altering the genetic characteristics (transmissibility, which hosts it can infect, disease progression etc.) of the pathogen. This is not something that is illegal. It is done on a variety of pathogens by researchers in order to predict what kind of microbes may appear in the future and to find treatments against them. The problem in this case is it appears Fauci might have been lying when he said that the US govt. wasn't financing any such research on Coronaviruses in the Wuhan Lab.
                    My opinion is the lawyers wil conclude he did not lie. But only because the framework for defining GOF is pretty stupid, atleast with hindsight. He can hid behind it. Its very techinical and unclear. See here for a discussion https://twitter.com/Ayjchan/status/1436672739159519233 if you want to chase your semantic tail or ass...and waste 10 minutes on word play...

                    The broader question is have the GOF community gotten the risk reward analysis correct here, if not, expect the defintion of GOF to firm up and npbody in the future will take faucis old position that increasing transmissilbity of viruses in humans to not be GOF, or more speciifically, that there are many instances where you can do that, of which most are not GOF, and a smaller subset are. Either way It's a sideshow.

                    Seriously the CCP must be laughing at all of us.
                    Last edited by tantalus; 11 Sep 21,, 22:55.

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                    • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      Prove it.
                      The proof is by deduction.

                      - GOF research had the intent to create a virus which we could learn to defend against. The tools were in place.

                      - Considering the amount of travel that goes on in China, a virus that gets out has to leaves traces. We would be finding mysterious pneumonias in more countries. We never saw that. The whistle was blown by Chinese doctors.

                      - The time to spread was incredibly quick. After the whistle is blown we have like a month and then its going every where. That is way way too quick for a naturally occurring virus. We don't have a precedent like this in recorded history. You've quoted flu before but tell me what was the level of medical expertise a hundred years back. This thing was genetically sequenced and that sequence was shared by Jan 06. A month after the cases started cropping up in China.


                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      Hell, I will even go further than that. Show me ANY hint that SARS-COV-2 was EVER in WIV.
                      If its classified we'd never know if such research was conducted at WIV.



                      Another possibility is does not have to be in WIV, It could have come from any other lab in China where such research was being carried out.

                      Classified military labs a train's ride away from Wuhan? Do we have intel of other labs in the vicinity. Say a 100-200 km radius from Wuhan.

                      WIV is in the spotlight because its closest to where the cases were reported. WIV could be a red herring.

                      The real culprits aren't even on the radar. WIV has become a patsy. An effective diversion.

                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      I also get why the Chinese are acting this way.
                      CCP wants to avoid reparations ?

                      Quite frankly those thugs need to be put in front of the equivalent of a Nuremburg style trial.

                      They've got blood on their hands and its worldwide, in the millions and counting (!)

                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      This is an institute with Top of the Line safety measures and protocals, manned by some of the most prestigious virologists on the planet, coming up with vaccines and cures for Ebola and SARS. And the West insulted them that they don't know their jobs and that they didn't do their jobs right despite the fact not one bug has ever been documented of escaping the place.
                      Well, what i find more telling is how few to none of western researchers will dare speak about lab theory because they know they will be out of a job soon after. Their labs will get black balled by the CCP. When your funding is dependent on papers you write and to write those papers requires experiments to be carried out in Wuhan because you can no longer do this research in country.

                      This is why we find very few experts if any in the field endorsing lab theory. This absence people use to say lab leak lacks credibility.

                      But its more insidious isn't it. China effectively controls what these people can say.

                      This did not happen with SARS back in 2003. People spoke up. WHO did its job. This time they are silent. That is a dereliction of duty.

                      When the very competent people who can and must speak up have a conflict of interest if they do (!)

                      Western politics may be insulting them. Western pro's are not.

                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      The WIV lead the world in bug research and safety procedures and we're calling them garbage collectors who stinked up the world.

                      And you want their help to prove that they are the garbage men you say they are? Why would any professional put up with that shit?
                      I put it this way. What got lab leak going was dumpster divers.

                      Truth does not come in slickly wrapped packages. Many times its in the trash.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Sep 21,, 15:03.

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                      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        The proof is by deduction.
                        You mean speculation with zero intel/evidence to support you.

                        From the ODNI's Unclassified Summary of Assessment on COVID 19 Origins

                        We judge the virus was not developed as a biological weapon. Most agencies also assess with low confidence that SARS-CoV-2 probably was not genetically engineered; however, two agencies believe there was not sufficient evidence to make an assessment either way. Finally, the IC assesses China’s officials did not have foreknowledge of the virus before the initial outbreak of COVID-19 emerged.
                        Translation: The Spooks don't believe there was any Gain-of-Function work done on SARS-COV-2 and they don't believe the Chinese was working on any such project since they did not have any foreknowledge.

                        In short, this shoots down ALL your consiparcy theories of China being knowingly responsible. Stop relying on non-virologists who has ZERO to do with the game.

                        To FURTHER illustrate this point, NO ONE has managed to modify SARS-COV-2 to spread amongst mice in order to learn about the actual physical transmission vectors and we're not talking about the Chinese here. We're talking about the actual virus that we can't even begin to spread amongst humanized mice and the Chinese would, taking your POV, would have had to start with something far, far, far less.
                        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 13 Sep 21,, 18:58.
                        Chimo

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