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  • #61
    https://afghanistaninquiry.defence.gov.au

    ...

    80. ... This Inquiry has been conducted pursuant to Chief of Army’s request, and subsequently the Chief of the Defence Force’s direction, to the Inspector-General of the Australian Defence Force to do so, and in conformity with Australia’s obligation as a State Party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. By conducting this Inquiry, the Australian Defence Force has taken ownership of its own problem, as the rumours began to emerge.
    ...

    32. The liaison between the Inquiry and the OTP-ICC served the purposes of furthering the Inquiry’s considerations, by endeavouring to source any information that the OTP may have of relevance to the Inquiry’s terms of reference; demonstrating to the OTP that the Inquiry is a rigorous and independent national investigation, which would meet the requirements of the complementarity principle and ensure that the ICC’s jurisdiction remained dormant; and, consistent with the Inquiry’s approaches to other coalition nations, ensuring that the Inquiry maintained its ’world’s best practice‘ approach, including by gaining insights into means of sourcing evidence from witnesses in Afghanistan, which informed the Inquiry’s decision to gather evidence in Kabul.
    ...

    2. The relevant Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) for Australia is principally to be found in Division 268 of the Commonwealth Criminal Code Act 1995 (the Criminal Code), through which Australia, as a party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court 1998 (Rome Statute) which established the International Criminal Court (ICC), implemented that instrument in domestic legislation. Division 268 was incorporated into the Criminal Code through Schedule 1 of the International Criminal Court (Consequential Amendments) Act 2002. These amendments commenced on 26 September 2002 and accordingly were applicable throughout the period of relevance to the Inquiry
    ...

    The International Criminal Court – the principle of complementarity

    43. The whole of the period under consideration by the Inquiry falls within the jurisdiction of the ICC. In the light of the decision of the Prosecutor of the ICC to open an investigation in respect of Afghanistan, it is important to observe that, under the principle of complementarity, the ICC lacks jurisdiction and the Australian Attorney-General is not to surrender, for example, a member of the ADF to the ICC’s jurisdiction, until Australia has had the full opportunity to investigate or prosecute any alleged crimes. Article 17 of the Rome Statute states:

    Article 17: Issues of admissibility

    1. Having regard to paragraph 10 of the Preamble and article 1, the Court shall determine that a case is inadmissible where:
    (a) The case is being investigated or prosecuted by a State which has jurisdiction over it, unless the State is unwilling or unable genuinely to carry out the investigation or prosecution;
    ...

    45. Pursuant to Article 17 of the Rome Statute, the ICC will only exercise its jurisdiction if a State fails to genuinely investigate and prosecute a situation in which crimes against international humanitarian law have been committed
    ...

    48. The Committee thus concluded that: ‘[T]he ICC Statute confirms the primacy of national jurisdictions and provides that the ICC can act only if the State is unable or unwilling to prosecute’
    ...

    52. There remains some debate as to the way in which contested complementarity; that is, situations where the national jurisdiction claims an effective process is on foot or has been completed, but where the ICC may not agree with this assessment, will be dealt with by both national courts and the ICC. The ICC Prosecutor is entitled to make their own assessment as to the adequacy of any national process cited as an admissibility bar to ICC jurisdiction. ...

    53. ... Australia is committed, and has demonstrated through this Inquiry, its commitment to inquire into, investigate, and if appropriate prosecute any allegations that may be amenable to ICC jurisdiction (in the absence of appropriate responses by Australia). Therefore, under the principle of complementarity, so long as Australia can satisfy the ICC Office of the Prosecutor that it is making the requisite inquiries and taking appropriate consequential action, the jurisdiction of the ICC is not enlivened.
    ...

    THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT
    ...
    46. The Office of the Prosecutor launched a preliminary examination of the situation in Afghanistan in 2006 after the receipt of numerous communications about the situation under article 15 of the Rome Statute. ...
    ...

    https://afghanistaninquiry.defence.g...se-Version.pdf
    Last edited by m a x; 19 Nov 20,, 17:25.

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    • #62
      Did you read this now

      The International Criminal Court – the principle of complementarity


      32. The liaison between the Inquiry and the OTP-ICC served the purposes of furthering the Inquiry’s considerations, by endeavouring to source any information that the OTP may have of relevance to the Inquiry’s terms of reference; demonstrating to the OTP that the Inquiry is a rigorous and independent national investigation, which would meet the requirements of the complementarity principle and ensure that the ICC’s jurisdiction remained dormant; and, consistent with the Inquiry’s approaches to other coalition nations, ensuring that the Inquiry maintained its ’world’s best practice‘ approach, including by gaining insights into means of sourcing evidence from witnesses in Afghanistan, which informed the Inquiry’s decision to gather evidence in Kabul.

      43. The whole of the period under consideration by the Inquiry falls within the jurisdiction of the ICC. In the light of the decision of the Prosecutor of the ICC to open an investigation in respect of Afghanistan, it is important to observe that, under the principle of complementarity, the ICC lacks jurisdiction and the Australian Attorney-General is not to surrender, for example, a member of the ADF to the ICC’s jurisdiction, until Australia has had the full opportunity to investigate or prosecute any alleged crimes. Article 17 of the Rome Statute states:

      ...

      48. The Committee thus concluded that: ‘[T]he ICC Statute confirms the primacy of national jurisdictions and provides that the ICC can act only if the State is unable or unwilling to prosecute’

      I think this pretty well says it all that the Australia has told the ICC to go fuck itself.
      Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 20 Nov 20,, 02:09.
      Chimo

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        ...
        I think this pretty well says it all that the Australia has told the ICC to go fuck itself.
        No. It says that the criminals are going to be fucked. There would have been no rumours, no inquiry, least complementarity without the ICC. Yet the Prosecution of the Court is to move decisively, provided Australia "omit" something or somebody

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        • #64
          Originally posted by m a x View Post
          No. It says that the criminals are going to be fucked. There would have been no rumours, no inquiry, least complementarity without the ICC. Yet the Prosecution of the Court is to move decisively, provided Australia "omit" something or somebody
          You obviously cannot read the bolded part. Oh, something else about the Australian justice system. Double Jeapordy. Sorry, the ICC is SOL The Australian Judicary WILL NOT ALLOW ANOTHER COURT TO TRY A CRIME THAT THEY'VE ALREADY TRIED.

          Oh, BTW, the rumours CAME LONG BEFORE THE ICC investigation. I've been hearing those since 2001. Some were well founded, especially those of Abdul Rashid Dostum. BTW. I don't see him in an ICC jail. Sorry, no can do about the ICC helping Australia. That's just wishful thinking on your part.

          Yeah, no matter what you want to say, Australia has basically gave a big fuck you to the ICC.
          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 20 Nov 20,, 03:02.
          Chimo

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          • #65
            ^ The Butcher of Kabul, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, has not been tried by ICC. He now lives as a politician in Kabul. Strange isn't it, one kills another and gets a jail term. One kills 1000s and gets to run for Presidential elections, and not tried by the ICC. ICC has lost whatever sanctity it PROBABLY had, when it didn't even name and shame Pakistani Generals & ISI thugs. ICC should first arrest, if it can, Pak Generals and ISI goons, and prosecute them, maybe this will give ICC some credibility. Else, ICC is worth chicken.
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              ...
              Yeah, no matter what you want to say, Australia has basically gave a big fuck you to the ICC.
              On the contrary. Australia gives now a good example to the World for a responsible nation. It is normal states to try keep judiciary trials within their own sovereignty, as the Rome Statute obviously provides. We can only wish Australian authorities good luck in the undertaken endeavour

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              • #67
                Originally posted by m a x View Post
                On the contrary. Australia gives now a good example to the World for a responsible nation. It is normal states to try keep judiciary trials within their own sovereignty, as the Rome Statute obviously provides. We can only wish Australian authorities good luck in the undertaken endeavour
                Try again. No one is arresting Hekmatyar nor Dostum even though both Australia and Afghanistan are RS signatories. Hekmatyar is accused of targetting civilians in rocket attacks (50,000 dead in Kabul alone). Dostum is accused of murdering 2000 Taliban. That is the biggest fuck you to the ICC if there ever was one.

                So, you're humping for joy over for less than 10 violations of the QR&O while CAH criminals walk free without a care in the world. You have one fucked up view of justice.
                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 20 Nov 20,, 17:02.
                Chimo

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  ^ The Butcher of Kabul, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, has not been tried by ICC. He now lives as a politician in Kabul. Strange isn't it, one kills another and gets a jail term. One kills 1000s and gets to run for Presidential elections, and not tried by the ICC. ICC has lost whatever sanctity it PROBABLY had, when it didn't even name and shame Pakistani Generals & ISI thugs. ICC should first arrest, if it can, Pak Generals and ISI goons, and prosecute them, maybe this will give ICC some credibility. Else, ICC is worth chicken.
                  Such claims are not sustainable by a side that not only refuses to support the International Criminal Court, but imposes sanctions on its personnel for doing legitimate job. If you have real evidence of committed war crimes against anyone, just go and submit them to the Court. As clearly there are powerful actors obstructing International Justice, why should You stick along them, instead of supporting development of Justice? Asking at same time why the ICC is not able to process all of its work. International courts are never established to serve as puppets of some federal USA or else's foreign policy



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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by m a x View Post
                    Such claims are not sustainable by a side that not only refuses to support the International Criminal Court, but imposes sanctions on its personnel for doing legitimate job. If you have real evidence of committed war crimes against anyone, just go and submit them to the Court. As clearly there are powerful actors obstructing International Justice, why should You stick along them, instead of supporting development of Justice? Asking at same time why the ICC is not able to process all of its work. International courts are never established to serve as puppets of some federal USA or else's foreign policy
                    You are so damned ignorant of the ground realities. Get a freaking hint. The evidence is there FOR anyone to look.

                    The rocket attacks, by sheer trajectory, simple trigometry, came from Hekmatyar's militia.

                    Dostum drowned his Taliban prisoners and we're not talking minutes. We're talking hours. He flooded his prison.The Taliban prisoners uprised. Instead of wasting men and ammunition in going jail to jail, he opened the pipes. He was so proud of this that he allowed journalists documented his actions.

                    Why is no one going after them? By treaty with Karzai, amnesty was given in peace talks. It would seemed that the RS and the ICC cannot overrule civil war peace gestures.

                    Get off your high horse. This was none of the US's doing. This was all Karzai. Get a freaking clue before accusing the US of crimes that are not hers.

                    So now, we have all the evidence that the RS and the ICC are nothing more than shams. The Australians would be processed through Australian laws that were in existence long before the RS. Don't need the RS nor the ICC for Australia to do her job. In fact, they stated as much.

                    The ICC can go fuck itself.

                    And we have evidence of actual CAH criminals being granted amnesty by a RS signatory government not only refusing to prosecute such crimes but refusing to allow the ICC to enter the country to investigate such crimes.

                    The ICC can go fuck itself.

                    And RS signatory nations. The UK, France, Germany, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc, those with troops on the ground doing absolutely zero to arrest these fucks.

                    The RS and the ICC can go fuck themselves.

                    And what's more, the ICC is NOT pushing to investigate other than ASKING, NOT DEMANDING, to be please be allow in.

                    Yeah, the ICC is fucking itself over. You're just too ingorant to see it.
                    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 20 Nov 20,, 19:41.
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Is all this back and forth have something to do with this current story in Australia?

                      Long a source of national pride, the moral integrity of Australia's military is now at stake


                      Canberra, Australia (CNN)All Australians are taught the ode of remembrance, recited for the nation's fallen soldiers known lovingly as "Diggers."

                      That nickname evokes the memory of Gallipoli, the Turkish peninsula where, in the trenches of World War I, the young nation's soldiers helped to forge a national identity. So Australian school students are taught.

                      "They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old; age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn."

                      Now the Australian public knows that age shall not weary the 39 Afghan civilians and non-combatants reportedly condemned by its own Diggers in Afghanistan. The Afghans were allegedly murdered, the Australian army itself detailed in its official enquiry Thursday, by elite Special Operations Forces -- the Diggers that were supposed to be the liberators and protectors, the best to wear an Australian military uniform.

                      Those 39 lives now remind Australians that like their own country, the modern nation of Afghanistan has been constructed by the cruelties of war, four decades of it since the Soviet invasion in 1979.

                      "I am sincerely sorry for their loss," Australia's chief of the Defense Force, Gen. Angus Campbell, said Thursday of the Afghan nation. "I can't imagine the pain, the suffering and the uncertainty that that loss has caused both at the time, and the continuing uncertainty of how that happened."

                      read more... https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/20/austr...hnk/index.html

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                        Is all this back and forth have something to do with this current story in Australia?
                        No, MAX is on an atni-Western bent. Everything Western bad. Everything Non-West good. Rome Statues apply to the US whether she signed or not. The ICC will dictate how the West should behave. Russia and China gets a pass because they have no central role in the World (I rolled my eyes on that one). The ICC or ICC signatories will punish the US for US sanctions on ICC Officers (I'm waiting with baited breath ... for nine months now... [sarcasm]yeah, Max has a real strong grasp on reality [/sarcasm]).

                        Max is praising Australia because he is wrongfully stating Australia is obeying the ICC and the RS. Australia isn't. Australia is obeying Australian Law and told the ICC that Australia will not surender ADF members nor jurisdiction.
                        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 21 Nov 20,, 08:24.
                        Chimo

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Wrong interpretation of my words does not make them other. Nor it helps the wrong stance to become true. Pravda vítězí
                          Last edited by m a x; 21 Nov 20,, 14:49.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            No, MAX is on an atni-Western bent. Everything Western bad. Everything Non-West good. Rome Statues apply to the US whether she signed or not. The ICC will dictate how the West should behave. Russia and China gets a pass because they have no central role in the World (I rolled my eyes on that one). The ICC or ICC signatories will punish the US for US sanctions on ICC Officers (I'm waiting with baited breath ... for nine months now... [sarcasm]yeah, Max has a real strong grasp on reality [/sarcasm]).

                            Max is praising Australia because he is wrongfully stating Australia is obeying the ICC and the RS. Australia isn't. Australia is obeying Australian Law and told the ICC that Australia will not surender ADF members nor jurisdiction.
                            He/She doesn't even acknowledge Pakistani General's or Afghani Warlords genocidal crimes. Goes on a rant, speaks nonsense, and tries to confuse others with his garbage posts. Sir, if your chewing is over, then...
                            Last edited by Oracle; 21 Nov 20,, 13:06.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by m a x View Post
                              Wrong interpretation of my words does not make them other. Nor it helps the wrong stance to become true.
                              Give me one freaking example where any of your freaking prediuction is true! Netanyahu is welcome by all NATO countries. Show me in any NATO orders that the RS is required reading. Give me an example where ICC judge gave orders to NATO officers. Find me one freaking example where RS signatories punish the US for ICC sanctions.

                              It is EXTREMELY curious that you jump on Australia but IGNORE Dotsum and Hekmatyar. Hell, you don't even know who they are and then ask us to sumbit evidence to the ICC. You don't even know the ground realities. We were not there to arrest Hekmatyar. We were there to kill him ... until Karzai made the deal.

                              You yourself can't even read your own links. Australia told the ICC to fuck off, plain and simple. You're grasping for straws when you suggest the ICC had anything to do with ADF arrests. ADF JAG was on the ground. The ICC is not even allowed into the country.


                              Originally posted by m a x View Post
                              Pravda vítězí
                              Here's a better quote. Reality bites.

                              You're posting bullshit and you know it.
                              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 21 Nov 20,, 18:40.
                              Chimo

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                              • #75
                                So, there is another reality some of those here live in, which is denying of Justice. We are really sorry for them

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