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  • #31
    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    ... If it ain't written down, it ain't going to happen ...
    Let's see then what is going to happen. After Bill Clinton's administration the federal USA has multiple of times shown it chooses to stand on the wrong side of the History. Now, sanctioning even the International criminal court personnel for doing legitimate job, it goes yet further down this path


    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    .. China and Russia is not going to play a central role in a global community? On what planet? ..
    The central role


    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    .. And I have news for you, everyone has sanctioned the ICC. Only they call it Entry Denied. ..
    Fake news. Whenever a state has the sovereign right to block certain international obligations is a legally definable matter on case by case basis. What Mike Pompeo and his associates are doing is to claim they are above the Law


    Originally posted by Oracle View Post
    ... We have to live with the fact that war is ugly and there will always be collateral damage. ...
    No, We are not discussing „collateral damage“ here. War Crimes have a specific definition under Rome Statute and it includes wilfulness
    https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...r-crimes.shtml


    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    ... Abu Ghraib was prosecuted under American Criminal Law and the UCMJ, not the ICC. ...
    Was prosecuted after the photos had become public. Otherwise it would have never happened exactly as they try now to leave the criminals free of indictment
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Gh...prisoner_abuse
    Last edited by m a x; 05 Sep 20,, 20:10.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by m a x View Post
      No, We are not discussing „collateral damage“ here. War Crimes have a specific definition under Rome Statute and it includes wilfulness
      https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...r-crimes.shtml
      Everything on the battlefield that is not supposed to be bombed/killed, and is bombed/killed, is collateral damage. Even if I have to live with your argument for a second, ICC has no jurisdiction to prosecute US military or its politicians. Shouldn't ICC first prosecute China and the CPC for Uighur genocidal camps or for the cause of the Tibetans?

      Might is right. My gun is bigger than yours. The world doesn't work your way. Savvy?

      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Oracle View Post
        .. ICC has no jurisdiction to prosecute US military or its politicians. Shouldn't ICC first prosecute China and the CPC for Uighur genocidal camps or for the cause of the Tibetans? ..
        ICC еxercises its jurisdiction against crimes committed on territories of states signatory to Rome statute under its Article 12 (2) (a) provision -- https://www.icc-cpi.int/resource-lib...nts/rs-eng.pdf . It has no legal grounds to prosecute USA military staff whenever they commit crimes on USA territory, par example, as the same with Chinese conduct in China. But as far as there were crimes committed in Afghanistan, which has joined the ICC Rome statute in 2003, it does not matter what kind of nationals have committed these crimes and the ICC prosecution is obliged to bring charges against all of them


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        • #34
          Originally posted by m a x View Post
          ICC еxercises its jurisdiction against crimes committed on territories of states signatory to Rome statute under its Article 12 (2) (a) provision -- https://www.icc-cpi.int/resource-lib...nts/rs-eng.pdf . It has no legal grounds to prosecute USA military staff whenever they commit crimes on USA territory, par example, as the same with Chinese conduct in China. But as far as there were crimes committed in Afghanistan, which has joined the ICC Rome statute in 2003, it does not matter what kind of nationals have committed these crimes and the ICC prosecution is obliged to bring charges against all of them

          Do yourself a favour, come back and post in this thread when the US President or SecofState is behind bars.
          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by m a x View Post
            Let's see then what is going to happen. After Bill Clinton's administration the federal USA has multiple of times shown it chooses to stand on the wrong side of the History. Now, sanctioning even the International criminal court personnel for doing legitimate job, it goes yet further down this path
            Wrong side of history? Where did you goto school? The only right side of history is that victors write the history. I don't see Al Qaeda nor Taliban Flags on the White House.

            Originally posted by m a x View Post
            The central role
            The 2nd most powerful military on earth and the 2nd largest economy on earth have no central role to play. Again, on what planet?

            Originally posted by m a x View Post
            Fake news.
            It's fake news once ICC people are in Afghanistan and not one second before.

            Originally posted by m a x View Post
            Whenever a state has the sovereign right to block certain international obligations is a legally definable matter on case by case basis. What Mike Pompeo and his associates are doing is to claim they are above the Law
            No, the US State Dept says they don't recognize the ICC and therefore, what they're doing is illegal in American eyes. Quite different than being Above the Law.

            Originally posted by m a x View Post
            No, We are not discussing „collateral damage“ here. War Crimes have a specific definition under Rome Statute and it includes wilfulness
            https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...r-crimes.shtml
            Yeah, I don't see any ICC people in Afghanistan.

            Originally posted by m a x View Post
            Was prosecuted after the photos had become public. Otherwise it would have never happened exactly as they try now to leave the criminals free of indictment
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Gh...prisoner_abuse
            Still prosecuted under the UCMJ and not the ICC. The ICC held no jursdiction over Americans. Never did and never will.
            Chimo

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              Do yourself a favour, come back and post in this thread when the US President or SecofState is behind bars.
              You demonstrate such incompetence about the ICC jurisdiction that makes my participation here even more necessary. There is no evidence whatsoever of war crimes committed under the responsibility and orders of USA President or Secretary of state, at least since the ICC has been established, over its territorial authority. From Pompeo's mentioning of „kids, who served in Afghanistan“ is understood that the problem is more like Lynndie in Abu Ghraib Iraqi prison, and presumably does not refer to the more experienced and high-ranking Pentagon's staff. As for the issue of whether American troops had to be sent at all at such places, it is something that depends after all on the American people to choose, what seems to go pretty amazing


              Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
              .. The only right side of history is that victors write the history. I don't see Al Qaeda nor Taliban Flags on the White House. ..
              This is exactly the point, since there would have been no Al Qaeda.. without the invasion in Iraq, but as another topic I would rather not discuss it here


              Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
              .. the US State Dept says they don't recognize the ICC and therefore, what they're doing is illegal in American eyes. Quite different than being Above the Law.
              ...
              .. The ICC held no jursdiction over Americans. Never did and never will.
              The Law is what the Court says, not the USA Pentagon or State department. Imposing sanctions against the Court personnel for their work to apply the Law is acting as if one is above the Law. If Americans want to be free from ICC jurisdiction, they would have to stay and do crimes home. Since the establishment of ICC, war crimes on every land that had joined the Rome statute are prosecuted under the Law
              Last edited by m a x; 07 Sep 20,, 08:25.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by m a x View Post
                You demonstrate such incompetence about the ICC jurisdiction that makes my participation here even more necessary. There is no evidence whatsoever of war crimes committed under the responsibility and orders of USA President or Secretary of state, at least since the ICC has been established, over its territorial authority. From Pompeo's mentioning of „kids, who served in Afghanistan“ is understood that the problem is more like Lynndie in Abu Ghraib Iraqi prison, and presumably does not refer to the more experienced and high-ranking Pentagon's staff. As for the issue of whether American troops had to be sent at all at such places, it is something that depends after all on the American people to choose, what seems to go pretty amazing
                Have you not yet realised, this is a board with ex-militarymen, making plans for the next country to be bombed, the next dictatorship to be toppled, the next front to be opened for accumulation of resources. The Colonel was respectful when he said ICC is a toothless tiger, I'd go one step ahead and say that the ICC is no more than a whorehouse, where pimps who have no legal sanctity gather, scribble notes, drink wine, and send harlots to rich clients to get its 1 minute of fame and money. Your posts here are motivated, and trust me, I have seen it many times.

                Originally posted by m a x View Post
                This is exactly the point, since there would have been no Al Qaeda.. without the invasion in Iraq, but as another topic I would rather not discuss it here
                Al-Qaeda was formed even before the first gulf war.
                Last edited by Oracle; 07 Sep 20,, 13:55.
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by m a x View Post
                  You demonstrate such incompetence about the ICC jurisdiction that makes my participation here even more necessary.
                  Your lack of realpolitik makes your posts extreme tiresome.

                  Originally posted by m a x View Post
                  This is exactly the point, since there would have been no Al Qaeda.. without the invasion in Iraq, but as another topic I would rather not discuss it here
                  Oh Dear God! 11 Sept 2001. Look it up. My Regiment went to war because of that date.

                  Al Qaeda was formed in 1988 by non-Afghan veterans of the Soviet-Mujahadeen War. The Kuwait War was 1990. Al Qaeda organized 11 Sept from Afghanistan in 2001. The US-Taliban War was in 2001. The US-Iraq War was 2003.

                  We invaded Taliban Afghanistan to destroy the Al Qaeda HQ responsible for the 11 Sept Attacks!

                  You clearly shown your SJW tendencies by ignoring historic facts and making up fantasies just to suit your needs.

                  Originally posted by m a x View Post
                  The Law is what the Court says, not the USA Pentagon or State department.
                  You have it WRONG ON BOTH COUNTS. The Law is WHAT THE LEGISLATURE says it is (in this case, the UNSC which in this case includes well, well, well, the US, Russia, and China WITH VETO powers). The Court is the Judicary who has no say in drafting legislation. The Executive (State and Defence) is the enforcement which in this case are ICC member states WHO ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO ENFORCE ICC Decisions.

                  High School History/Political Science.

                  Originally posted by m a x View Post
                  Imposing sanctions against the Court personnel for their work to apply the Law is acting as if one is above the Law. If Americans want to be free from ICC jurisdiction, they would have to stay and do crimes home. Since the establishment of ICC, war crimes on every land that had joined the Rome statute are prosecuted under the Law
                  You don't obey Taliban Laws. Why should the US or Russia or China obey the ICC? And if ICC member states do decide to arrest US American military personnel under decisions the US do not recognize, you do know that is considered an Act of War, right?
                  Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 07 Sep 20,, 19:44.
                  Chimo

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    Have you not yet realised, this is a board with ex-militarymen, making plans for the next country to be bombed, the next dictatorship to be toppled, the next front to be opened for accumulation of resources. ..
                    Sounds a bit like the Nazis, who had also appeared very strong at the outset


                    Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    .. The Colonel was respectful when he said ICC is a toothless tiger, I'd go one step ahead and say that the ICC is no more than a whorehouse, where pimps who have no legal sanctity gather, scribble notes, drink wine, and send harlots to rich clients to get its 1 minute of fame and money. ..
                    When both of You are reasoning the reality on how it was in the past. While ICC has been established and works with a vision of future


                    Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    .. Your posts here are motivated, and trust me, I have seen it many times. ..
                    Motivated I am by such Flinstone characters on the World stage -- https://www.worldaffairsboard.com/fo...ce#post1420913 -- to give a clue that people already live in 21st century


                    Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    .. Al-Qaeda was formed even before the first gulf war.
                    I wrote „Al Qaeda..“ with dots to express all the terror that has erupted by a stupid war one said is led against the terror. Almost no one had heard of Al Qaeda before they started to move for this war. Russia was still unable to get out of the financial hole after the Soviet Union collapse with then, prior to that war, prices of oil and etc. But this is another topic and thank You for the remark


                    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    .. The Law is WHAT THE LEGISLATURE says it is (in this case, the UNSC which in this case includes well, well, well, the US, Russia, and China WITH VETO powers). The Court is the Judicary who has no say in drafting legislation. The Executive (State and Defence) is the enforcement which in this case are ICC member states WHO ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO ENFORCE ICC Decisions. ..
                    International law is not that simple and is not correct to derive it by analogy with national systems, which are of different types. It starts with Jus Cogens .. and in our discussion ends somewhere with Rome Statute. Have You read it

                    Donald Trump's administration has already broken a binding UNSC resolution on the so called Iran deal. And people have always to be very suspicious when some military one is trying to define what the Law is


                    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    ..
                    You don't obey Taliban Laws. Why should the US or Russia or China obey the ICC? ..
                    In cases of war crimes it is the criminals who obey Taliban Laws


                    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    ..
                    And if ICC member states do decide to arrest US American military personnel under decisions the US do not recognize, you do know that is considered an Act of War, right?
                    No. When there are sufficient legal grounds for arrest it is called Justice. Almost every war criminal, brought before International Justice, claims the Court has no jurisdiction to sue him
                    Last edited by m a x; 07 Sep 20,, 21:27.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by m a x View Post
                      I wrote „Al Qaeda..“ with dots to express all the terror that has erupted by a stupid war one said is led against the terror. Almost no one had heard of Al Qaeda before they started to move for this war.
                      We ALL heard of Al Qaeda on 12 Sept 2001. Two years before the Iraq Invasion. Where were you?

                      Originally posted by m a x View Post
                      International law is not that simple and is not correct to derive it by analogy with national systems, which are of different types. It starts with Jus Cogens .. and in our discussion ends somewhere with Rome Statute. Have You read it
                      Don't need to. I need to be versed in the Queen's Orders, the Geneva Conventions, and the Law of Armed Conflict. Anything else is just fantasy island and has zero effect on me or my Regt.

                      Originally posted by m a x View Post
                      No. When there are sufficient legal grounds for arrest it is called Justice. Almost every war criminal, brought before International Justice, claims the Court has no jurisdiction to sue him
                      There is not a General in WWII who is not guilty of a war crime. I don't remember Eisenhower, Patton, Montgomery, Simms, Chuikov, Zuhkov, Chiang going to trial. Nixon was certainly guilty of LB 1&2. Putin is certainly guilty of a land grab in Crimea.

                      ... and ... no arrest.

                      3 months since the US sanctioned the ICC ... and I'm not holding my breath for counter-sanctions.

                      And since no ICC people are in Afghanistan to do any investigation ... I ain't holding my breath for anything to come out that.
                      Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 08 Sep 20,, 00:45.
                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by m a x View Post
                        Sounds a bit like the Nazis, who had also appeared very strong at the outset
                        The Nazis were strong, America stronger. Btw, if you compare America to Nazi Germany, what about China and Russia? LOL.

                        When both of You are reasoning the reality on how it was in the past. While ICC has been established and works with a vision of future
                        And vision that might be? Drinking free wine on member nations' donation, scribbling notes, what? No one takes the ICC seriously. Get over it.

                        Motivated I am by such Flinstone characters on the World stage -- https://www.worldaffairsboard.com/fo...ce#post1420913 -- to give a clue that people already live in 21st century
                        I don't know what happened to today's youth. When I was 14, your age, we used to talk about science & maths, how to scan every inch of the moon, is there life on Mars (?), how to score pretty girls by making them believe they are our soul-mates then leave them right after the act, have non-stop fun but study seriously before the exams, play almost any sport. In short, that was how we socialized. Pre-internet times. Nowadays, you'll are born with internet on your papa's smartphone, and all you do is rant about things that are inconsequential to the world stage as well as your life. You want to be an idealist, great, get ready to live in shelter homes and food stamps, as the future world doesn't have place for people without skills. And trust me when I say this, Artificial Intelligence would kill most known jobs. You're headed in the wrong direction.

                        I wrote „Al Qaeda..“ with dots to express all the terror that has erupted by a stupid war one said is led against the terror. Almost no one had heard of Al Qaeda before they started to move for this war. Russia was still unable to get out of the financial hole after the Soviet Union collapse with then, prior to that war, prices of oil and etc.
                        I repeat, Al-Qaeda was formed before the first gulf war. Your whining doesn't change facts.

                        But this is another topic and thank You for the remark
                        Montgomery?

                        You in the middle of the sentence is in Caps? The least you can do is attend high school.
                        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          We ALL heard of Al Qaeda on 12 Sept 2001. Two years before the Iraq Invasion. Where were you? ..
                          I was watching the news and analysis -- https://www.vbox7.com/play:2a6a07b6 .. One should be blind for the facts to not see that 9/11 attacks have been organized to serve as a pretext for a stupid war


                          Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          .. I need to be versed in the Queen's Orders, the Geneva Conventions, and the Law of Armed Conflict. ..
                          Good, yet not enough for an Army professional in today's World changing environment. Parties to the Geneva Conventions are required to search for, try and punish anyone who has committed or ordered war crimes, under Articles 129 and 130 of Third GC -- https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/375 . As far as the federal USA does not apply this law for war crimes of its personnel committed on territories under International criminal court jurisdiction, You should have already read and been well aware of the Rome statute provisions -- https://www.icc-cpi.int/resource-lib...nts/rs-eng.pdf


                          Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          .. There is not a General in WWII who is not guilty of a war crime. I don't remember Eisenhower, Patton, Montgomery, Simms, Chuikov, Zuhkov, Chiang going to trial. Nixon was certainly guilty of LB 1&2. ..
                          International criminal court has been established some 20 years ago with the entry into the new millennium and apparently becomes an independent Justice authority that serves the law and the facts, regardless of what state representatives of prosecuted individuals may unlawfully do or declare. One may go back even to Stone ages in attempts to describe the reality, but it is what the ICC is meant to overcome for human civilization ahead, whoever wants to belong there
                          Last edited by m a x; 08 Sep 20,, 10:27.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by m a x View Post
                            I was watching the news and analysis -- https://www.vbox7.com/play:2a6a07b6 .. One should be blind for the facts to not see that 9/11 attacks have been organized to serve as a pretext for a stupid war
                            YOU'VE GOT TO BE SHITTING ME! Not only do you deny Al Qaeda's exitence pre-Iraq Invasion, now, you jump straight into consipracy theory.

                            Originally posted by m a x View Post
                            Good, yet not enough for an Army professional in today's World changing environment. Parties to the Geneva Conventions are required to search for, try and punish anyone who has committed or ordered war crimes, under Articles 129 and 130 of Third GC -- https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/375 . As far as the federal USA does not apply this law for war crimes of its personnel committed on territories under International criminal court jurisdiction, You should have already read and been well aware of the Rome statute provisions -- https://www.icc-cpi.int/resource-lib...nts/rs-eng.pdf
                            Wrong. I'm under zero obligations and in fact forbidden to launch military actions against a foreign power just to capture an ICC criminal. I do NOT obey the ICC nor am I authorized to enforce ICC decisions. The ICC is NOT in my Chains of Command nor will it ever be.

                            And do not pretend to tell me what I needed to do for my career.

                            Originally posted by m a x View Post
                            International criminal court has been established some 20 years ago with the entry into the new millennium and apparently becomes an independent Justice authority that serves the law and the facts, regardless of what state representatives of prosecuted individuals may unlawfully do or declare. One may go back even to Stone ages in attempts to describe the reality, but it is what the ICC is meant to overcome for human civilization ahead, whoever wants to belong there
                            Fine. Putin, Mugabe, Mohammed bin Salman, Kim Jong Un, Bashar al-Assad, Ismail Haniyeh, Rouhani, Khamenei ... you want me to go on?

                            Despite all your hogwash. The simple fact remains, the ICC is not in Afghanistan gathering evidence nor will it ever be. Neither Kabul nor the Taliban will allow it. No evidence. No trial. It's as simple as that.

                            All the provisions you've listed, without people doing the actual leg work, are nothing more than toilet paper. The ICC will not rule against the US for one very simple reason. It is unable to gather evidence.
                            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 08 Sep 20,, 19:04.
                            Chimo

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by m a x View Post
                              I was watching the news and analysis -- https://www.vbox7.com/play:2a6a07b6 .. One should be blind for the facts to not see that 9/11 attacks have been organized to serve as a pretext for a stupid war
                              Ah, there it is. Moment I started reading your posts I knew the "9/11 was a conspiracy man!" shit was coming. Post has been reported. Hopefully the forum update hasn't messed with the ban button. Although it is fun to see the Colonel chew you up. Go back under your tinfoil hat kid.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by m a x View Post
                                I was watching the news and analysis -- https://www.vbox7.com/play:2a6a07b6 .. One should be blind for the facts to not see that 9/11 attacks have been organized to serve as a pretext for a stupid war
                                Keep that garbage off this site please.
                                “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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