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Putin Moves to Capitalize on Europe’s Fury With Trump

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  • snapper
    replied
    Strange how people lie when it comes to dealing with Moscow.

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  • zara
    replied
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Ask and thou shalt receive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWQh2lHqYek Arron Banks at Select Committee hearing where he will have to admit having met the Muscovite Ambassador.
    He claimed when he was in Moscow he visited the Hermitage muesuem, which is in St Petersburg, so he's lying about something.

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  • snapper
    replied
    Ask and thou shalt receive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWQh2lHqYek Arron Banks at Select Committee hearing where he will have to admit having met the Muscovite Ambassador.

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  • zara
    replied
    At the end of the day all Moscow did was convince some Americans to vote for one candidate. They mostly failed in Europe (pending Aron Banks investigation).

    Surely the west is capable of doing the same to Russia? Troll farms, fake news and fake accounts are hardly beyond the ability of the west.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    not just the US, but across Europe. social media, intrusions into voting systems, hacking into political party e-mails, etc.
    I'm not seeing it. So, they made fake profiles and plug fake social media newstories and stole non-government non-encrypted emails. How is that intruding on an election when the responsibility to vote belonged to the voter. There was no buying of votes, denial of vote, nor putting a gun to voter's head. There is certainly influence, fake or otherwise, but again the responsibility to vote belonged to the voter and by extension, it is the voter's responsibility to make an informed choice.

    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    we certainly didn't do anything similar to Putin, as much as he thinks the color revolutions were all caused by the CIA. this type of attack demands an equivalent response.
    So we pump money into the opposition and steal their data (and we do steal their data). We're just not stupid enough to publically release it.

    I'm not seeing what you're seeing that would require an upfront economic sanction response instead of beating the Russians at their own game.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 09 Jun 18,, 05:38.

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  • astralis
    replied
    But what do you mean screwing with Western elections? All Putin did was released non-classified data from a non-government server. We did far worst with coups and banana republics.
    not just the US, but across Europe. social media, intrusions into voting systems, hacking into political party e-mails, etc.

    we certainly didn't do anything similar to Putin, as much as he thinks the color revolutions were all caused by the CIA. this type of attack demands an equivalent response.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    but that doesn't mean we can't hurt Russia, and hurt Russia badly, via economic sanctions. if Putin screws with western elections, then the least we can do is attack the basis of his popularity-- a growing economy. either Putin plays nicer with us or he can have fun being in the Chinese economic sphere.
    I have news for you. It wasn't Trump who lead the charge to buy more Russian hydrocarbons.

    But what do you mean screwing with Western elections? All Putin did was released non-classified data from a non-government server. We did far worst with coups and banana republics.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 09 Jun 18,, 03:09.

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  • astralis
    replied
    My point being is that like it or not, you cannot isolate Russia as you do NKorea. They have far too many channels not under Western control to access. Hell, they even are doing business with the UKR.
    i agree, Russia will never be NK just for the fact of the oil alone.

    but that doesn't mean we can't hurt Russia, and hurt Russia badly, via economic sanctions. if Putin screws with western elections, then the least we can do is attack the basis of his popularity-- a growing economy. either Putin plays nicer with us or he can have fun being in the Chinese economic sphere.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    so would a G8 with Russia be any better vis-a-vis China? there's no advantage to it.
    My point being is that like it or not, you cannot isolate Russia as you do NKorea. They have far too many channels not under Western control to access. Hell, they even are doing business with the UKR.

    Edit: My apologies. When I said trigger points, I mean as in weapons hot, not social justice warrior tantrums.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 08 Jun 18,, 23:40.

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  • astralis
    replied
    so would a G8 with Russia be any better vis-a-vis China? there's no advantage to it.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    don't need more, not now and not at the G7 forum. if Russia is going to act like a pariah state then they can be treated like a pariah state.
    G7 means squat all without China and China is not going to treat Russia as a pariah state.

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  • astralis
    replied
    We've got two machine guns nests staring at each other. Who does what shopping where, when, and how ain't got nothing to do with how we talk about not shooting each other.
    we already have basic communication mechanisms with Russia. we're de-conflicted in Syria, for instance, those 300 mercs notwithstanding.

    don't need more, not now and not at the G7 forum. if Russia is going to act like a pariah state then they can be treated like a pariah state.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    Russia attacked the electoral systems of several democracies. that's an attack on the very root of our governments, strategic in nature.
    How well did that work out across Europe last year ?

    Austria, France, Germany, Netherlands. Netherlands was a real joke they backed a right winger that was gay.

    None of their proteges won

    It's an open question whether their meddling amounted to anything meaningful in your election

    Now i don't expect them to stop, they will keep trying in the future. They have this covert hybrid warfare policy

    But the thing with this kind of attack is its good only the first time before everybody gets smart to it.

    In other words they only get one shot
    Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Jun 18,, 20:36.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    the US response to Russia should have been something akin to the maximum pressure campaign put on NK. threaten to bankrupt the elites supporting the Putin regime. warn Putin in no uncertain terms that if this ever occurs again, we would openly consider Russia to be a hostile power with all that entails. this would certainly be tit for tat considering the scale of their malfeasance.

    i agree ultimately we'll need a communication mechanism with the Russians. but for the moment the basis of the communication should be that Russia has crossed a red line with the US, and if there is to be further communication this red line must not be crossed again.
    We've got two machine guns nests staring at each other. Who does what shopping where, when, and how ain't got nothing to do with how we talk about not shooting each other.

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  • GVChamp
    replied
    Where exactly is the red line that Russia is not supposed to cross? Like if Russia hacked Trump's email address and leaked information NOW is that bad, or it is only bad during an election year? How about if the release information, doctored or not, intended to influence the Mueller investigation, how do we handle that? Is it bad they operate RT? The Senators and Twitter seem pretty pissed that Russia apparently operate fake Facebook accounts, so is THAT now the red-line? is Russia loaning money to the National Front the red-line?

    What about US actions in Russia, or do red-lines only apply to Russia?

    None of these questions seem clear to me, and in any case there was no clear escalation, so it doesn't make sense to make Russia into an international pariah state like NKorea (which we've been dealing with, with the exact same issue, for decades).

    Crimea is a much clearer case, because you can't just annex another nation's territory. That's been precedent forever.
    Last edited by GVChamp; 08 Jun 18,, 20:11.

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