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Putin Moves to Capitalize on Europe’s Fury With Trump

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  • snapper
    replied
    My country has been at war with Muscovy for four years, we have 162 political prisoners held in captivity in Muscovy and have had a region annexed and it's native Tatar people oppressed, their TV stations closed and language banned, leaders imprisoned or exiled, 11,000 and counting dead and over 45,000 injured thanks to a hypocritical, lying cleptocratic chekist mafia in Moscow and you think I should try to reason with them and negotiate?

    On what basis do have any proof of their good faith if they signed some piece of paper? Budapest Memorandum? Helsinki Accords? UN Founding Charter? Minsk1 and 2 all broken... but we should negotiate with the armed trespasser? No I do not negotiate with people who trespass on my land and kill my friends until they leave and put down their weapons. Until then for Ukraine all talks are a waste of time - though I believe new 'Normandy format' are going to be held in Berlin next week to waste more time.
    Last edited by snapper; 08 Jun 18,, 19:51.

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  • astralis
    replied
    They've received one. 300 Russian mercs, an entire battalion, died under American bombs. Their Syrian allies lost a chemical staging point.

    At the end of the day, Russia is still an 800lb bear that has to be dealt with. Trigger points, both theirs and ours, has to be defined, communicated, respected, enforced, and executed. If we are to start WWIII, then I want all the i's dotted and all the t's crossed and not over a misunderstanding.
    not enough. not near enough.

    Russia attacked the electoral systems of several democracies. that's an attack on the very root of our governments, strategic in nature.

    yeah, turning 300 Russian mercs into bloody paste was a pretty darn good day, but that was done as a reaction to those same mercs testing out US resolve in Syria...and not as a reaction to the earlier aforementioned attack.

    the US response to Russia should have been something akin to the maximum pressure campaign put on NK. threaten to bankrupt the elites supporting the Putin regime. warn Putin in no uncertain terms that if this ever occurs again, we would openly consider Russia to be a hostile power with all that entails. this would certainly be tit for tat considering the scale of their malfeasance.

    i agree ultimately we'll need a communication mechanism with the Russians. but for the moment the basis of the communication should be that Russia has crossed a red line with the US, and if there is to be further communication this red line must not be crossed again.
    Last edited by astralis; 08 Jun 18,, 19:45.

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  • GVChamp
    replied
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    I would not negotiate with a trespasser or someone whole stole my computer files. They are in the wrong; not I. They may excuse themselves and give guarantees that such conduct will stop if they wish but there is no sign of that. It is not upto us as democracies/alliances to offer negotiations to a criminal regime that has invaded us and interfered in our democratic processes. It is for them to apologise and "gerroff mah lawn!" as a friend of mine would say.
    I get what you're saying, but in international affairs, the people who are "trespassing" or might "trespass" are exactly the people you need to talk to. If you can come to a working political framework you can avoid violence in the first place, or end violence already occurring.

    That's not to say you should just roll over and surrender but the best way out of sticky situations is often to talk. That's why they hand out Nobel Peace Prizes, after all.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    the only pragmatism Russia needs is that of a fist to the face.
    They've received one. 300 Russian mercs, an entire battalion, died under American bombs. Their Syrian allies lost a chemical staging point.

    At the end of the day, Russia is still an 800lb bear that has to be dealt with. Trigger points, both theirs and ours, has to be defined, communicated, respected, enforced, and executed. If we are to start WWIII, then I want all the i's dotted and all the t's crossed and not over a misunderstanding.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 08 Jun 18,, 18:20.

    Leave a comment:


  • Firestorm
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    the only pragmatism Russia needs is that of a fist to the face.
    What does that entail practically? There are already sanctions in place right especially against Putin's cronies?

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  • snapper
    replied
    I would not negotiate with a trespasser or someone whole stole my computer files. They are in the wrong; not I. They may excuse themselves and give guarantees that such conduct will stop if they wish but there is no sign of that. It is not upto us as democracies/alliances to offer negotiations to a criminal regime that has invaded us and interfered in our democratic processes. It is for them to apologise and "gerroff mah lawn!" as a friend of mine would say.

    Leave a comment:


  • astralis
    replied
    the only pragmatism Russia needs is that of a fist to the face.

    i was previously of the sentiment that Russia was a nuisance power. with their actions they have made themselves rather more than a nuisance, and should be dealt with accordingly.

    if not under this feckless POTUS, then assuredly the next one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Double Edge
    replied
    The sentiment is fine but pragmatism is necessary at times

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  • snapper
    replied
    Kingmaker? By materially (ie to make a difference) interfering in the US election? No. We do not (or should not) speak to those who seek to undermine our democracies and unity. They are already at war with us - I have seen it in Ukraine. Time for talking at all but the lowest level is done. You can speak to dictators with imperialist ambitions until the cows come home (though goats need fetching) and nothing will change. Chamberlain tried it and sacrificed Czechoslovakia (as it was). They have attacked us, we are at war. F*ck talking.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Dominating is a future aspiration but until such time they play kingmaker and that is where interacting with them comes in

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  • astralis
    replied
    Russia's not interested in running a world in conjunction with other countries in the post-WWII construct; they seek a world where US power is broken, with spheres of influence that will allow them to dominate each individual smaller country.

    Russia can go stuff themselves.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    “Now, I love our country. I have been Russia’s worst nightmare … But with that being said, Russia should be in this meeting,” Trump said Friday as he left the White House. “It may not be politically correct, but we have a world to run. … They should let Russia back in.”
    He has a point

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  • astralis
    replied
    I am really starting to believe that Putin has something on the guy.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...rimean-crisis/

    Trump calls for readmitting Russia to G-7 four years after it was expelled for its role in Crimean crisis
    by Washington Post Staff June 8 at 8:34 AM

    President Trump said Russia should be readmitted to the Group of Seven leading economies, breaking with other world leaders who have insisted Moscow remain ostracized following its involvement in the 2014 Crimean crisis.

    Trump’s comments, made as he was departing to Canada for the annual G-7 summit, have the potential to further upend talks with other world leaders. U.S. officials believe Russia interfered in the 2016 election, and part of this year’s G-7 summit was supposed to focus on protecting democracies from foreign meddling.

    Trump has sought to improve relations between the United States and Russia since taking office. The U.S. government and other nations have imposed strict sanctions on Russia related to its involvement in Crimea, and those penalties remain in effect.
    This is a developing story. It will be updated.

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  • snapper
    replied
    For Germany with North Stream 2? Are you serious?

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  • GVChamp
    replied
    Not really sure I see the strategic value in shifting to Russia from the US. You would prefer to have decent working relations with Russia, since it's such a large nation so close to you and you are connected through economic and energy ties, but you can't substitute one nation for the other.

    The worrying part in the article (which overall is pretty speculative) are the right-wing parties saying that sanctions on Russia should be lifted. But aren't these parties best described as Euro-skeptic? There's a bit more going on there than just "we don't like Trump."

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