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Polish Holocaust Law

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  • Polish Holocaust Law

    It is sad that I have to criticise a Government that I helped vote into power again but these idiots are well just idiots more concerned with the past than the future. They have done 'stoopid' before - storming the offices of a NATO affiliated Organisation to revoke someones security pass - but now they are getting worrying.

    So this PiS government is becoming in Polish terms increasingly Dmowski-an rather than Jagiellonian as they promised - some of them in person to me. I will not bore you with the history but Dmowski was basically a nationalist - at times an ancestor worshiper type nationalist who thought Poles were a 'narod', 'volk' or 'race' in English - a result perhaps of the Sarmatian theory that the Polish aristocracy are descended from old Iran. Fortunately he was in his time opposed by Piłsudski who saved Poland and perhaps all Europe from the Red Army in 1920. Piłsudski was a Polish Lithuanian and remembered the Commonwealth and the freedoms it allowed - I think religious freedom was granted in the 1500s from memory. But the Commonwealth evidently had to freedom of religion as it was comprised of what is today parts of Poland, all the Baltics, Belarus and most of Ukraine. Fine worship as you please - it is normal now. Should be anyway. No country is a 'pure race' - do the genetic studies - and trying to make it so would be impossible, pointless and most likely detrimental to the 'race' in gene pool diversity terms.

    Now however if I proclaim that some Poles were complicit in the Holocaust in my native country I may be prosecuted. I proclaim it here - which I do - and will do so there and wheresoever it is disputed with me be in Poland or not. I am a Pole. Dmovski was a Pole too and his supporters were anti Semites because they viewed Poles as a 'race'. I do not like some facts but I prefer to face them rather than ignore or rule them 'illegal' to mention but some Poles - a minority for sure - were complicit in the Holocaust. Some no doubt were forced by the Nazis but others were willing accomplices. If you are you are trying to tell me that there was no antisemetism in Poland pre WW2 you are talking BS. My Pater told me how his Pater said he had to wash underneath his foreskin or he would become a "Jew boy". It happened - probably only a minority - but deal with it. It is our guilt as a nation to have any of us be complicit with an enemy let alone an organised mass murder program but it happened.

    To deny this by law is insanity of the highest order; it doesn't change the facts. To make it illegal to say Jan Stanislaw was a Polish national and fed gas into the gas chambers (I have been there) is insane - it is true and prosecute me if you wish. It is akin to Muscovy where history is changed by law - Crimea was always "Russian" etc - well no. I dare say I will be arrested or whatever next time I visit the country where most of people call home.

    More importantly this PiS Government, though it has done some good things - the Three Seas Initiative is flawed in my view but better than nothing - the Baltic Pipeline (gas from Norway) etc... by turning inward has missed the best chance since the Khmelnytsky rebellion to rebuild a new form of the Commonwealth or Rzeczpospolita. The problem is to have a new Confederation you have to accept the views of others that might differ from yours - their religious practices - their freedom to express those views and all this supposedly Jagiellonian looking Government is Dmowski-an. Instead of reaching out to where it actually matters - for their own security - they are fart arsing with the Polish history of the Holocaust which by and large would otherwise be held not accountable anyway. These guys are deeply misguided.
    Last edited by snapper; 10 Feb 18,, 03:48.

  • #2
    Is this legal in the EU?


    • #3
      They're already the target for planned sanctions from the EU anyway.


      • #4
        Just wondering about the legality of the title of the thread. Could be illegal under Polish law


        • #5
          I don't think that law, is very polished.


          • #6
            Dont quit your day job....��


            • #7
              Originally posted by snapper View Post
              It is sad that I have to criticise a Government that I helped vote into power again but these idiots are well just idiots more concerned with the past than the future. They have done 'stoopid' before... (continued)... Instead of reaching out to where it actually matters - for their own security - they are fart arsing with the Polish history of the Holocaust which by and large would otherwise be held not accountable anyway. These guys are deeply misguided.
              Snapper, I concur that the term fart-arsing was a perfect description in your passionate statement above. Touché.

              Will they now also proclaim the Warsaw Ghetto during WW2 was just a German industrial park ? ��

              And Aucshwitz, Belzek, Chelmo, Majdanek, Sobibor, Terezín and Treblinka were universities and preparatory academies...? ��

              Edit: spel-ling
              Last edited by PeeCoffee; 21 Feb 18,, 06:41.
              Real eyes realize real lies.


              • #8
                Senate Marshal Karczewski (Chairman of the Upper House of the Polish Sejm/Parliament) has now called on all Poles "notify diplomats about anyone who slanders the Polish nation."

                No PeeCoffee they are not saying that the massacres did not happen - Aucshwitz is there outside Krakow. They are merely by law denying that any Polish nationals aided or abetted in these acts of genocide and making it illegal to say that Polish person did. It's just facile. You can pass any law you want - no French shall be spoken on the Champs d'Elysee or whatever but good luck stopping the Frogs speaking French in the Cafes. You simply cannot stop people saying things by law and only an idiot would try. There were without some Poles - doubtless a small minority - who were anti semetic themselves and gave up Jews to the nazi's or actively helped in conveying people to the camps. There were French people who collaborated with the deportation of the French Jews, others who joined the underground partisan groups - the Polish Home Army underground organisation being the largest resistance force in occupied Europe. Yes we should condemn those who collaborated with the nazis in such a grotesque program be they be they French, Polish, Hungarian, Ukrainian or German but is not a 'slander' on a whole nation that some minority of it's population collaborated - it is the guilt of those individuals alone. France is no less today for admitting that some French collaborated and I do nt see that Poland would be. On the contrary I think it diminishes Poland's image in the world to pass such a law denying it.

                Nor can I in any way regard as the duty of a responsible and rational Government to pass laws relating to historical events. It is just not the business of a Government or a legislature. Let the students study it, the Professors write books about it and let us learn from it so that it may never happen again but legislating about it seems to me entirely inappropriate - they should focus on the future which can be shaped not the past which cannot be changed.


                • #9
                  Thank you Snapper for that clarification.
                  Indeed the majority of Poles resisted the Nazis...there were those that aided and abetted the Nazis...albeit a small minority.
                  The Poles suffered severely under the Nazis and the Russians...but to state empirically with 100% certainty that no Poles were complicit we know for a fact not to be true.

                  Passing a law stating that this can never be discussed is indeed fart arsing.
                  Real eyes realize real lies.


                  • #10
                    I have absolutely no idea what everybody is reading. The Law states that the Polish STATE and/or GOVERNMENT did not participate in genocide. You can state Polish individuals did participate. Considering the Polish Government in exile was in London during WWII, that is absolutely true. Anyone else helping the Germans were collaborators.


                    • #11
                      Sir while it is true that the legitimate Government of the Rebublic remained in London until 1990 there was during the nazi (and Soviet) occupation a substantial 'resistance' in Poland known as the Home Army which took orders (as much as was possible) from the Government in exile. These were the people who staged the Warsawa Uprising in 1944 among many other acts of resistance. Like any other National resistance movement discipline was difficult to enforce and it was in parts infiltrated by nazi sympathisers and split - commies, nationalists, democrats etc all had their own ideas. It is the actions of a small minority of these people - acting ostensibly under the purview of the Government in exile - that this law seeks to deny.


                      • #12
                        Oh Horse Pucky. The Government In Exile knew as much as London did. In fact, less, all intel to and from was vetted by SIS. They learned of death camps at the same time the allies did. I will rephrased that. They believed the death camps at the same time the allies did, when the allies marched in. What did you expect their operatives to do absent any orders? March in protest? Civil disobedience? The Nazis were shooting villages just on suspecting partisan activities.

                        The fact that some Poles were glad to see the gas chambers and working for the Government-In-Exile does not mean the Government-In-Exile was making sure the gas chambers were running on time.

                        This is a non-issue on par with the holocaust-denial laws. Much ado about nothing.


                        • #13
                          I fully acknowledge that the Government in exile had little control over the Home Army. I also fully acknowledge the difficulties under which the Home Army operated. This does not change the fact that some who operated in the name of the Home Army (which was itself subordinate to the Government in exile) collaborated with the nazis in murdering innocent people. Certainly it was neither the Government in exile's nor the Home Army's policy to collaborate in any way - rather the opposite. Fact is there were instances where it did happen - sometimes under duress and sometimes willingly. For myself I regard it as more honourable to accept this - the guilt is not mine or 'Polands' or the Government in exile's. It's specifically the guilt of those who aided. It is better to accept it and blame them rather than legislate that it never happened.


                          • #14
                            The Polish government will postpone implementing its controversial new Holocaust law, Israel's Foreign Ministry claims. According to the ministry, the government in Warsaw decided not to enforce the new law at Israel's request, despite the fact that it passed the Polish parliament and authorization by the Polish president.

                            At least Duda retains some sanity.