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  • Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Certainly not Sir, I am just not ignorant of your doubtless honourable service record and which side you served unlike other members of this forum.
    Either you are calling me a liar or you are insinuating that if i served "on the other side" that my opinion is worthless. Which is it?
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    My point is that if you are indeed Swedish you could not have served with the NATO forces that were the main guarantor of European liberty during the Cold War. Their vigilance won a great victory where many of the occupied Central and Eastern nations were liberated and now prosper.
    First of all I served in the Army of a NATO member outside of Europe where waging war was my daily duty, not kicking my heels "in vigilance" imagining imminent danger in Europe and crying wolf. In addition to that I was in Beirut as a civilian during the civil war and I resided in Rhodesia as a civilian again towards the end of Ian Smith’s government. I do know one or two things about war, you see. Secondly, NATO did bugger-all during what you so nervously refer to as Praha Spring and Budapest. Thirdly, much of East Europe now realizes that many of the promises made by Radio Free Europe were false.
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    I did read your response; " I don't give a fiddler's buttocks that you might have done me a favour yesterday..." seems like great loyalty to me.
    I said reciprocated loyalty. You missed that, did you?
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    The Iraqi's were in constant violation of the Armistace and the breaking the no fly zones they agreed to respect after the first Gulf War. They also inhibited International Inspectors contrary to the agreements they had signed. In what sense do you construe their breach of the agreements as legitimate? By one breach alone the allies were justified to resume military operations against the murdering war criminal Saddam. International war crimes demand us to bring the perpetrators to justice and we should bring Assad to justice as well.
    Oh for Christ's sake. Not again. Cut through the long-winded brown stuff, please. The U.S. and Britain lied about WMD's, fabricated "proof" as well. Saddam Hussein had already destroyed his WMD arsenal. The first inspection team was saturated with CIA spies and was turned back. The second team was legitimate but the U.S. and Britain ordered them out just as the team was about to inspect the 12th. and final site. NO WMD's to be found. The UN did not give you the go-ahead to invade Irak, thus the invasion was illegal. And then there was torture at Abu Graib and Guantánamo against Geneva Convention Rules thus committed war crimes upon war crimes. Exactly what part of this do you not understand?
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    I assure you my English comprehension is not that rusty.
    I have no interest in that.
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    I do not care if you have asked for my removal.
    This is a non-issue, so why drone on about it?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
      Either you are calling me a liar or you are insinuating that if i served "on the other side" that my opinion is worthless. Which is it?
      You mistake me I think. Even if had served on the "other side" I would respect your service.

      Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
      First of all I served in the Army of a NATO member outside of Europe where waging war was my daily duty, not kicking my heels "in vigilance" imagining imminent danger in Europe and crying wolf. In addition to that I was in Beirut as a civilian during the civil war and I resided in Rhodesia as a civilian again towards the end of Ian Smith’s government. I do know one or two things about war, you see. Secondly, NATO did bugger-all during what you so nervously refer to as Praha Spring and Budapest. Thirdly, much of East Europe now realizes that many of the promises made by Radio Free Europe were false.
      I salute your service Sir. I did not "nervously" refer to the uprisings in the Warsaw Pact though. I only wish I had been born when the Polish uprisings took place. I was able to help the 2014 Ukrainian 'Revolution of Dignity' and subsequent defence in small part though.

      Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
      I said reciprocated loyalty. You missed that, did you?
      Then your comment that "I don't give a fiddler's buttocks that you might have done me a favour yesterday..." does not seem to logically follow.

      Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
      Oh for Christ's sake. Not again. Cut through the long-winded brown stuff, please. The U.S. and Britain lied about WMD's, fabricated "proof" as well. Saddam Hussein had already destroyed his WMD arsenal. The first inspection team was saturated with CIA spies and was turned back. The second team was legitimate but the U.S. and Britain ordered them out just as the team was about to inspect the 12th. and final site. NO WMD's to be found. The UN did not give you the go-ahead to invade Irak, thus the invasion was illegal. And then there was torture at Abu Graib and Guantánamo against Geneva Convention Rules thus committed war crimes upon war crimes. Exactly what part of this do you not understand?
      It was legal without UNSC vote as they had breached the Armistace terms.

      Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
      I have no interest in that.
      I am merely pleased to have informed you that the British use Pounds and Pence, not cents.

      T
      Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
      his is a non-issue, so why drone on about it?
      It was you who raised the issue not I.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
        Either you are calling me a liar or you are insinuating that if i served "on the other side" that my opinion is worthless. Which is it?
        You mistake me I think. Even if had served on the "other side" I would respect your service.

        Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
        First of all I served in the Army of a NATO member outside of Europe where waging war was my daily duty, not kicking my heels "in vigilance" imagining imminent danger in Europe and crying wolf. In addition to that I was in Beirut as a civilian during the civil war and I resided in Rhodesia as a civilian again towards the end of Ian Smith’s government. I do know one or two things about war, you see. Secondly, NATO did bugger-all during what you so nervously refer to as Praha Spring and Budapest. Thirdly, much of East Europe now realizes that many of the promises made by Radio Free Europe were false.
        I salute your service Sir. I did not "nervously" refer to the uprisings in the Warsaw Pact though. I only wish I had been born when the Polish uprisings took place. I was able to help the 2014 Ukrainian 'Revolution of Dignity' and subsequent defence in small part though.

        Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
        I said reciprocated loyalty. You missed that, did you?
        Then your comment that "I don't give a fiddler's buttocks that you might have done me a favour yesterday..." does not seem to logically follow.

        Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
        Oh for Christ's sake. Not again. Cut through the long-winded brown stuff, please. The U.S. and Britain lied about WMD's, fabricated "proof" as well. Saddam Hussein had already destroyed his WMD arsenal. The first inspection team was saturated with CIA spies and was turned back. The second team was legitimate but the U.S. and Britain ordered them out just as the team was about to inspect the 12th. and final site. NO WMD's to be found. The UN did not give you the go-ahead to invade Irak, thus the invasion was illegal. And then there was torture at Abu Graib and Guantánamo against Geneva Convention Rules thus committed war crimes upon war crimes. Exactly what part of this do you not understand?
        It was legal without UNSC vote as they had breached the Armistace terms.

        Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
        I have no interest in that.
        I am merely pleased to have informed you that the British use Pounds and Pence, not cents.

        T
        Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
        his is a non-issue, so why drone on about it?
        It was you who raised the issue not I.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by snapper View Post
          It was legal without UNSC vote as they had breached the Armistace terms.
          Way i've understood it is it was not illegal but of questionable legality, meaning grey zone.

          For most people the opposite of legal is illegal, well there is a space in between those two.

          Breaking the Amrmistice wasn't the reason they went in though

          WMD's was only a pretext

          Comment


          • Originally posted by snapper View Post
            Tyranny is corrupt, wrong and evil. I am not saying I would all the three the same way but I certainly believe Gaddaffi and Saddam were murdering b*stards and that Assad is war criminal. Either you believe in the international law or it is dog eats dog.
            Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
            ..... The U.S. and Britain lied about WMD's, fabricated "proof" as well. Saddam Hussein had already destroyed his WMD arsenal. The first inspection team was saturated with CIA spies and was turned back. The second team was legitimate but the U.S. and Britain ordered them out just as the team was about to inspect the 12th. and final site. NO WMD's to be found. The UN did not give you the go-ahead to invade Irak, thus the invasion was illegal. And then there was torture at Abu Graib and Guantánamo against Geneva Convention Rules thus committed war crimes upon war crimes. Exactly what part of this do you not understand?
            Originally posted by snapper View Post
            It was legal without UNSC vote as they had breached the Armistace terms.
            You have just contradicted yourself so grossly that the mind boggles. By your own definition you prefer "dog eats dog". There were no WMD's and the UN Inspection team (it's an international organization, just so that we are clear on that) proved there were no WMD's. No WMD's No breach. No "grey zone". Only an illegal invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation. To put it into simple terms ..... you illegally invaded Irak against International Law. You committed an international crime against humanity. Both Kofi Annan and Hans Blix said as much.
            Last edited by FORMBY; 21 Dec 18,, 02:30.

            Comment


            • Well I certainly never said "It was legal without UNSC vote as they had breached the Armistace terms" so please stop composing composites of my comments. Nor did I personally ever "invade Iraq" though I admit to crossing the Syrian border illegally a couple of times in the past.

              Tell me friend did you actually serve against the Warsaw Pact? Simple yes/no question. If you served against them and for a NATO member "outside Europe" which must be either the US, Canada or Turkey, why do you not celebrate the liberty that NATO's victory in the 'Cold War' gave and the liberty of Central and Eastern Europe that the victory brought? I merely wonder why you think the spreading of liberty or the overthrowing of murdering and kleptocratic tyrants is wrong and the spread of liberty against your interests?

              For myself I am most interested in history and I hold by the righteousness of Brutus when he stabbed Caesar: "Sic semper tyrannis." God made all people free. I will hold with God's will.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                …... Nor did I personally ever "invade Iraq"….
                You’ve made it clear that you associate yourself with NATO. That makes you guilty by your own admission.
                Originally posted by snapper View Post
                Tell me friend did you actually serve against the Warsaw Pact? Simple yes/no question.
                Look mate, I owe you no details of my life. You’ve already suggested that my credibility is questionable so what would be the point in submitting my name, rank, and serial number? I mean, seriously.
                Originally posted by snapper View Post
                If you served against them and for a NATO member "outside Europe" which must be either the US, Canada or Turkey….
                Correct.
                Originally posted by snapper View Post
                …. why do you not celebrate the liberty that NATO's victory in the 'Cold War' gave and the liberty of Central and Eastern Europe that the victory brought?
                You credit NATO for the West’s superior propaganda and Gorgatjov’s Dubček-ian courage? What visions you pilfer from others!
                Originally posted by snapper View Post
                I merely wonder why you think the spreading of liberty or the overthrowing of murdering and kleptocratic tyrants is wrong and the spread of liberty against your interests?
                “Spreading of liberty” is your definition of creating Al Qaida & ISIS, as well as the torture and murder of upwards one million innocent men, women, and children of Irak alone - such treachery that has yet to subside to this very day? Oh Stalin, what a charmer you are!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
                  You have just contradicted yourself so grossly that the mind boggles. By your own definition you prefer "dog eats dog". There were no WMD's and the UN Inspection team (it's an international organization, just so that we are clear on that) proved there were no WMD's. No WMD's No breach. No "grey zone". Only an illegal invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation. To put it into simple terms ..... you illegally invaded Irak against International Law. You committed an international crime against humanity. Both Kofi Annan and Hans Blix said as much.
                  Read from here

                  From 2004, its a settled question on this board

                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  Because it was never declared illegal by the UN.
                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  Doesn't matter what Annan says. He's not the authority. The UNSC is the authority.
                  So repeat after me, "not illegal"

                  You think we'd still have a UNSC if it was illegal ?

                  It's ok its a common misconception.
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Dec 18,, 13:08.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    So repeat after me, "not illegal"
                    Repeat after Kofi Annan, "Illegal"

                    Repeat after Hans Blix, "Illegal"

                    Repeat after Double Edge? Who's he? King of the world? A shill? A man with an agenda? An honest bloke who just want to set the record straight for the benefit of mankind?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
                      Repeat after Kofi Annan, "Illegal"

                      Repeat after Hans Blix, "Illegal"

                      Repeat after Double Edge? Who's he? King of the world? A shill? A man with an agenda? An honest bloke who just want to set the record straight for the benefit of mankind?
                      The 'he' here is OOE, go do some reading you're raking up old stuff that is settled here long time ago.

                      Only people pushing the 'illegal' line are the Russians & the French. Indians picked up the Russian line and i've argued this point with them too, like a decade ago : D

                      All sorts of what i call ju jitsu takes place in the UNSC, we were discussing this re NK some time back.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Dec 18,, 13:44.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        The 'he' here is OOE ...
                        Out Of Earnest?
                        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        .... go do some reading
                        But I have done. Why is it you think I know what Kofi Annan and Hans Blix have said? Just pulled it out of the sky?
                        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        ... you're raking up old stuff that is settled here long time ago.
                        "settled HERE"? To satisfy your own collective agenda, no doubt. You don't really believe that what is said HERE is the yardstick of international trouble-shooting, do you?
                        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        Only people pushing the 'illegal' line are the Russians & the French. Indians picked up the Russian line and i've argued this point with them too, like a decade ago
                        Oh, well then. So what is the verdict? I am French? Am I Russian? Or am I Indian? Not to boast but I have been right round the world overland and I discovered a couple of amazing things that you may have missed: The world really is round and there are nearly 200 nations all across it. To restrict an opinion of fact to only the French, Russians, and Indians might indicate that your knowledge of the world and its' inhabitants is a tad restricted. In any case, “the only people who ….. are the …… !” is awfully adolescent. I mean seriously. Take two steps back and pretend it was someone else who wrote it.

                        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        All sorts of what i call ju jitsu takes place in the UNSC, we were discussing this re NK some time back.
                        Is there any relevancy to this comment?

                        There is one glaring lesson for me to glean from this discussion and that is, Kofi Annan and Hans Blix know nothing and it’s the opinions of Double Edge and his mate alone that matter.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
                          Out Of Earnest?
                          officer of engineers

                          Do familiarise yourself with his posts. Simplfies things greatly. Your join date is Dec 16, you must be aware of who i'm referring to.

                          But I have done. Why is it you think I know what Kofi Annan and Hans Blix have said? Just pulled it out of the sky?
                          You're parroting out what the newspapers say. I said read the thread i linked to.

                          "settled HERE"? To satisfy your own collective agenda, no doubt. You don't really believe that what is said HERE is the yardstick of international trouble-shooting, do you?
                          And can you challenge anything said here or not ? No, you're mere disagreement means nothing.

                          Can you recommend a place finer than this one for the subjects we discuss ? i've been here over a decade not found any yet.

                          Oh, well then. So what is the verdict? I am French? Am I Russian? Or am I Indian? Not to boast but I have been right round the world overland and I discovered a couple of amazing things that you may have missed: The world really is round and there are nearly 200 nations all across it. To restrict an opinion of fact to only the French, Russians, and Indians might indicate that your knowledge of the world and its' inhabitants is a tad restricted. In any case, “the only people who ….. are the …… !” is awfully adolescent. I mean seriously. Take two steps back and pretend it was someone else who wrote it.
                          Does not matter

                          Is there any relevancy to this comment?
                          Yes, how things get done in the UNSC without going illegal

                          There is one glaring lesson for me to glean from this discussion and that is, Kofi Annan and Hans Blix know nothing and it’s the opinions of Double Edge and his mate alone that matter.
                          As OOE said kofi & blix do not supercede the UNSC

                          UNSC did not say it was illegal

                          US is still in the UNSC

                          Case closed
                          Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Dec 18,, 14:59.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
                            You’ve made it clear that you associate yourself with NATO. That makes you guilty by your own admission.
                            No I do NOT "associate myself with NATO". I merely asserted that without NATO the Cold War victory - which I do not think was a complete victory - would not have been possible. Even if I did "associate myself with NATO" and so for some reason was "guilty" would it not follow that seeing as you very clearly do not associate yourself with the liberty that NATO gained for so many in the Cold War, would you be guilty for the creation of the Soviet gulags?

                            I could also remind you that the 'invasions' of Iraq, Libya and Syria were NOT NATO operations.

                            Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
                            Look mate, I owe you no details of my life. You’ve already suggested that my credibility is questionable so what would be the point in submitting my name, rank, and serial number? I mean, seriously.
                            I did not ask for the details of your life; I merely asked if you served against the Warsaw Pact but I respect your right not to answer.

                            Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
                            You credit NATO for the West’s superior propaganda and Gorgatjov’s Dubček-ian courage? What visions you pilfer from others!
                            I credit Pope John Paul ll in part for the role he played with the Polish Solidarity movement too. Is that mistaken?

                            Originally posted by FORMBY View Post
                            “Spreading of liberty” is your definition of creating Al Qaida & ISIS, as well as the torture and murder of upwards one million innocent men, women, and children of Irak alone - such treachery that has yet to subside to this very day? Oh Stalin, what a charmer you are!
                            NATO did not create ISIS or AQ - nor Stalin or Putler. It does stand up to such insane and criminal lunatics. That is why it is every of all who wish to remain free and believe in truth to oppose such criminal tyrants wherever and whenever they arise. Thus has it always been.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                              You're parroting out what the newspapers say.
                              No, I am repeating Annan’s and Blix’s words.

                              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                              Breaking the Amrmistice wasn't the reason they went in though
                              WMD's was only a pretext
                              WMD’s. A pretext. Do I sense a flippant demeanour? Was the lie of WMD’s a means to the greater good? I hope snapper is paying attention now because Adolf placed a few corpses in Polish uniforms, dumped them within the German frontier and immediately crossed into Poland on the pretext of an invasion initiated by the Poles. I reckon Hitler considered the guise to be for the benefit of a greater good as well

                              Originally posted by snapper View Post
                              NATO did not create ISIS or AQ .
                              NATO (read the U.S.) most certainly did create both of them. Now you can pull out the razor and split a few hairs but NATO is butt hole of the U.S. When America farts NATO goes into action. NATO is, therefore doing America’s bidding through the whole gauntlet of … today supporting/supplying/funding, tomorrow thwarting the creating of America’s black flag manoeuvring of/with both ISIS and Al Qaida. Off hand I cannot think of any American operation on the continent that does not include NATO support. Perhaps there are?

                              Comment


                              • Hows brexit coming along !

                                Comment

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