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  • Originally posted by snapper View Post
    The full hypocrisy and dangers involved in the 'Leave' campaign - and the lengths they propose to go to achieve a disaster for the UK - are now becoming apparent.

    I am pretty certain the whole 'Leave' campaign and it's leading spokesmen and Ladies argued during the campaign that a deal (a la Norway, Switzerland or Canada) regarding future trade between the UK and the Continent would be "the easiest deal in history to make". I recall considering this notion before the referendum and thought it dubious myself as the EU is a self interested organisation in it's own right and letting the UK 'get away' lightly with Brexit would encourage others to further erode the central jurisdiction which they rightly or wrongly seek to uphold. David Davis (the first Brexit Minister) proclaimed he would be conducting talks with German car manufactures without considering that they have no authority to negotiate for the EU. So the 'easiest deal in history' argument was it turned out incorrect.

    Having however wrongly argued that the UK would be able to make 'easiest deal in history' the 'Brexiteers' now say that when they meant the UK would be able to work out the 'easiest deal in history' with the EU what they actually meant was that the UK should leave with no deal and that the British people who believed their first mistaken argument all understood they actually meant the 'easiest deal in history' really meant 'no deal'. It's like the pigs in Animal Farm changing the laws of the revolution. Some of them even argue that the UK will get a better deal after it has left with no deal... I am not sure how that can make sense to anyone but unashamed misdirection is now the name of the game it seems. Breath taking hypocrisy and misdirection for which should be some legal remedy.

    Mrs May having resigned a leader of the Conservative and Unionist Party there are a host of would be successors, the favourite being the incompetent self publicist Boris Johnson. Another contender is the second Brexit Minister (after Mr Davis discovered the German car manufactures could not negotiate with him and went off in a huff claiming the EU was playing against the rules) Dominic Raab. Before I explain the Honourable Members ingenious plan let me recall another of the Brexit campaigners main arguments was that; leaving the EU would restore sole sovereignty to the British people and to Parliament. To this they added wildly extravagant claims of how many EU laws directly effected British people and businesses etc. So restoring the sovereignty of Parliament was said to a great and virtuous result of leaving the EU. The current British Parliament being unable to pass any sort of agreement on Brexit may perhaps cause some to question the value of this virtuous sovereignty the Brexiteers spoke of. So the excuse is that the majority of MPs are 'remoaners'. Mr Raab though has an ingenious solution to get around this troublesome Parliamentary democracy problem: If elected as Tory leader (and ergo PM) by the few thousand remaining Conservative Party members he proposes to plans to use Royal prerogative (exercisable by the PM with the Queens consent) to prorogue Parliament. This means the session of Parliament would end, the MPs would all go home and no business would be done until October when the EU's extension of the Brexit timetable runs out. Thus the UK would leave the EU with 'no deal' by default. Of course the normal and democratic process for removing such an impasse would be call an election and argue your case to the country believing that a new Parliament would succeed where the current has failed to reach agreement. Not a bit of for the 'Honourable' Mr Raab(id) as of course the Tories would not fare well so he will dispense with asking the people in order to do 'peoples will' that they did not vote for in the referendum - to get the 'no deal' and 'dispense with Parliamentary sovereignty when Parliament will not agree with no deal'.

    So here we see the second such blatant disregard for all that 'Leave' campaign urged the British people would be in their interests. When they said 'easiest deal in history' they meant 'no deal', when they said 'restoring the sovereignty of Parliament' they meant to add a caveat of 'except when Parliament won't agree to no deal' and guess what? That is what 51% for Brexit actually (of the 72% of the eligible voters to vote in the referendum) understood and meant.

    This Member can only described as 'Honourable' in sarcastic terms. The whole hypocrisy is sickening and what is worse is that if ploy is used by whoever is elected as the next Conservative leader it will drag the Queen into it as she my give her consent to the use of the royal prerogative to essentially shut down Parliament until the deadline for a Brexit deal is passed. The English Civil War started for a more minor reason - over ship tax to pay for the Navy and honestly any PM who attempts such a misguided and anti democratic ploy to having lied to the British people so much deserves to end as did Charles l with his head on the block.
    The veil has dropped and the British see the political liberal elite for what they are. Which is why the Brexit party is so terrifying.

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    • Pretty sure Farage was one those arguing it would be 'easiest deal in history' but now interprets that as equating to 'no deal' for which he is now campaigning. He's no less a hypocrite than the rest only is his funding is circumspect as well to say the least.

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      • Originally posted by snapper View Post
        Pretty sure Farage was one those arguing it would be 'easiest deal in history' but now interprets that as equating to 'no deal' for which he is now campaigning.
        The corporate strategy based in London working hand in glove with Remain is to undermine Brexit. We've seen it repeatedly interfering by sponsoring individuals to legally disrupt any attempt to enable the leave process. Its no surprise to watch these Machiavellian maneuverings and the self interest of a small clique disrupt a democratic vote.

        his funding is circumspect as well to say the least.
        Thats just another attempt by the establishment to protect their interests. It's not fooling anybody.

        I was reading that the White population of London was now down to 40% which corresponds with the Brexit vote for leave in London. Hardly going to get immigrants to vote for something which underminers their status and lets face it the wealthy white liberal elite need immigrants to keep wages low, which is another reason they are ok with allowing mass immigration from where ever...
        Last edited by Freyr; 08 Jun 19,, 13:28.

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        • Originally posted by Freyr View Post
          The veil has ... lifted and the British see the political liberal elite for what they are. Which is why the Brexit party is so terrifying.
          fixed that for ya..

          I'm surprised at how similar that same sentiment is when directed at the old guard in my country, India.

          A new elite is forming and the older one does not like it.

          Here's quote i heard recently...

          The political cost of not following through with Brexit exceeds the economic cost of following through..
          Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Jun 19,, 17:01.

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          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            fixed that for ya..

            I'm surprised at how similar that same sentiment is when directed at the old guard in my country, India.

            A new elite is forming and the older one does not like it.

            Here's quote i heard recently...

            The political cost of not following through with Brexit exceeds the economic cost of following through..
            lol, thanks and yes that's what I'm understanding....its the national mood which isn't always swayed by just money. I think we're on the same wave...People are fed up with corruption and want real change not just dressing the window. Same everywhere Ukraine showed that to recently

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            • Originally posted by Freyr View Post
              People are fed up with corruption and want real change not just dressing the window.
              Where do you see the corruption in the UK ?

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              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                Where do you see the corruption in the UK ?
                Same place you sound like a psycho -analyst ... ;-)

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                • Originally posted by Freyr View Post
                  The corporate strategy based in London working hand in glove with Remain is to undermine Brexit. We've seen it repeatedly interfering by sponsoring individuals to legally disrupt any attempt to enable the leave process. Its no surprise to watch these Machiavellian maneuverings and the self interest of a small clique disrupt a democratic vote.
                  The Leave campaign spent more than the 'Remain' campaign. I honestly do not know where most of the money for the 'Remain' campaign came from but sure doubtless some companies that did alot of business in Europe may have contributed.

                  However to accuse the Remain side of dubious funding and "Machiavellian maneuverings" when the funding of the Leave campaign is under criminal investigation and it is precisely those who lead the 'Leave' campaign who's position has changed such that 'easiest deal ever' is somehow supposed to have meant the same as 'no deal' (though that seems a contradiction to me) is just preposterous. Sure you can say it like I can say 'the world is flat'; you can even believe as a child might in Father Christmas but all the evidence points in the opposite direction.

                  As for the population of London etc... Who do you think the English are? There may be traces of the old Celtic peoples in Scotland, Wales, Cornwall - maybe even some Roman but the 'English' only started arriving after the Romans left. Kent was said to be the first 'English' Kingdom and that said to be founded by two Jutish Brothers. The Normans? Probably relatives of your ancestors from some part of Norway or Denmark. Farage is descended from an exiled family of French Huguenots. 'England' has been a melting pot for over 2000yrs and no amount of 'Brexit' is going to stop that.
                  Last edited by snapper; 09 Jun 19,, 10:40.

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                  • Originally posted by Freyr View Post
                    Same place you sound like a psycho -analyst ... ;-)
                    Your point is people are being misled by minsters paid by corporate interests to delay brexit ?

                    Corruption isn't a term i hear often in the west, and so i wondered why you used it.

                    The corporate strategy based in London working hand in glove with Remain is to undermine Brexit. We've seen it repeatedly interfering by sponsoring individuals to legally disrupt any attempt to enable the leave process. Its no surprise to watch these Machiavellian maneuverings and the self interest of a small clique disrupt a democratic vote.
                    That's it
                    Last edited by Double Edge; 09 Jun 19,, 12:48.

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                    • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                      The referendum was not binding. If it had been binding it could be ruled illegitimate by the Courts due to the criminality involved on the leave side.
                      The reason for asking why hold the referendum is why hold if they have no intention of following though. Given how subsequent events have developed that appears to be the case.

                      It means it was a fake referendum.

                      It appears like they were fully expecting remain to win and not given any thought to the opposite happening. Not important. They don't matter.

                      Could have just stuck to annual polls like the Icelanders. Those aren't legally binding either.

                      To hold a referendum and then hold back is to lose trust with the electorate.

                      People weren't told hey this is just an opinion poll to see which way the wind is blowing. It's not legally binding even if brexit wins.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 09 Jun 19,, 12:57.

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                      • As I said previously one of the main motivations for the Cameron led Conservative Party to promise a referendum was to win the election in 2015 by taking the votes that might otherwise have been cast for UKIP. Secondly he/they wished to end the rift in the Conservative Party itself.

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                        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          The reason for asking why hold the referendum is why hold if they have no intention of following though. Given how subsequent events have developed that appears to be the case.

                          It means it was a fake referendum.

                          It appears like they were fully expecting remain to win and not given any thought to the opposite happening. Not important. They don't matter.

                          Could have just stuck to annual polls like the Icelanders. Those aren't legally binding either.

                          To hold a referendum and then hold back is to lose trust with the electorate.

                          People weren't told hey this is just an opinion poll to see which way the wind is blowing. It's not legally binding even if brexit wins.
                          All true, an opinion poll posing as a referendeum...and it doesn't look like the Brexiters figured they were going to win either.

                          I've posted this before, and now there's a few follow-ups. Talk about a complete shit show.
                          Thankfully we here in the U.S. have Trump to keep us from getting too smug about other nation's domestic shit shows.

                          This video was uploaded Jul 15, 2016



                          These followup vids were uploaded Mar 10, 2019




                          “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
                          ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

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                          • ^Thanks that pretty much covers it.

                            There's nothing as permanent as a temporary solution

                            I'll remember that line. It has bearing in my part of the world too.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 09 Jun 19,, 19:20.

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                            • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                              All true, an opinion poll posing as a referendeum...and it doesn't look like the Brexiters figured they were going to win either.

                              I've posted this before, and now there's a few follow-ups. Talk about a complete shit show.
                              Thankfully we here in the U.S. have Trump to keep us from getting too smug about other nation's domestic shit shows.

                              This video was uploaded Jul 15, 2016



                              These followup vids were uploaded Mar 10, 2019




                              This is what I was talking about DE . Its what happens when you allow a remainer to negotiate on your behalf...total confusion! Not only was a remainer allowed to negotiate for the UK. But also an unelected Federalist clique has been in charge on the EU side. One which follows orders. We are now 3 years since a referendum when a very simple question was asked. The recent EU elections have come and gone and that vote back in 2016 has just been reaffirmed. Both Labour and Tories have been decimated and the winner the Brexit party can only be tamed by the Tories giving the PM job to Boris Johnson, Shame coz I think Rory Stewart is more than capable, but unfortunately he is a remainer and so that won't happen. I would agree that the Uk (which is a sovereign nation Kato the last time I looked) in the main back in 2016 would have been happy with powers that allowed the flow of movement to be controlled. Which is only a little bit more than the Danes have put in place already and the last time I looked were looking for an extension. But EU arrogance and inflexibility didn't allow for this and so Cameron came back with an empty magazine, hence you have the referendum result. Personally I wouldn't give anybody any money at all until certain criterias are met. A bit like having a pet, You only give it a treat for performing a task or a trick. If the pet doesn't like the house rules, shoot it and buy a new one!

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                              • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                                As for the population of London etc... Who do you think the English are? There may be traces of the old Celtic peoples in Scotland, Wales, Cornwall - maybe even some Roman but the 'English' only started arriving after the Romans left. Kent was said to be the first 'English' Kingdom and that said to be founded by two Jutish Brothers. The Normans? Probably relatives of your ancestors from some part of Norway or Denmark. Farage is descended from an exiled family of French Huguenots. 'England' has been a melting pot for over 2000yrs and no amount of 'Brexit' is going to stop that.
                                I know who the English are thank you . Germanic tribes in the main that fused together after numerous wars to become a new nation called England. Held together for over a thousand years by a common history. They have every right to call themselves indigenous and to say other wise is a total lie. The Celts were pushed to the fringes initially but even they melted into the populous of England when the industrial revolution started. Recent immigration from the sub-continent and the west indies in the 50's - 60's - 70's was to fill jobs that the English didn't in the main want to do anymore this immigration is partially successful but unfortunately in many areas unsuccessful and has become a source of friction in certain areas. But anyway my point was simply an observation of the vote in London and the recent historical influx from many different ethnic back grounds. and yes I do know about the Huguenots many of which ended up in South Africa, which is why we now have many quality wines from that area of the world. But thats more intolerant European history

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