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  • Toby
    replied
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    As Gen Mattis in the US said in regard to hollowing the State Department etc if you do that I am going to need more guns. It is one thing to think more about oneself and another to do it stupidly. You're 'thinking about yourself' has now landed the UK in a constitutional impasse re a Second Scottish Independence Referendum - as many warned.

    To be quite honest this Sturgeon Lady is being highly cynical and there are clear none-senses in the time line she has suggested. For starters if she won a second referendum Scotland would be out of the EU and yet she proposes to have this referendum before the Article 50 exit negotiations are concluded so theoretically Scotland could leave the EU before the rest of the UK which is precisely what she is complaining about and the theoretical reason she cites as to why a second referendum should be held. Nor is it clear that the final deal will be acceptable to most of the population - two years is a long time. If is almost certain that no matter what 'final deal' the current Government comes back not everyone will be happy and it will of itself become a political football. If the Tories are being torn apart and might face obliteration in a subsequent election it is quite possible that a second referendum on the 'final deal' may result. You never know but the UK could remain more in than out while the Scots would be back at stage 1 of negotiating entry to the EU. So yea it is entirely cynical and doesn't make any real sense but the SNP is borderline national socialist of the nastier kind.

    Some may say - I believe tankie did - sod Scotland (or words to that effect) which in a way means sod the union. More "thinking about ourselves" perhaps. In my view this is facile thinking. You remember the 'Auld Alliance' the Scots had with the Frogs? For years after the personal union under the Stuarts (1603?) the French threat manifested itself via Ireland. Churchill wanted to go back into the Irish Republic for Atlantic bases in WW2 and to prevent the enemy exploiting the vacuum so to speak - only the most solemn of assurances (and gold) prevented it; there is a good reason the UK seeks to have good relations with the Irish Republic; it keeps potential enemies out and saves British lives and money. Now at a time when you desire to divorce England from all it's real and not so real allies on the continent to abandon the Union itself as well strikes me a mistake greater than any made before in the long history of English or British foreign policy since Harold Godwinson banished his brother Tostig into the open arms of Harald Hadrada. Again it is one thing to "think more about yourselves" but quite another to think stupidly.

    I hope some compromise can be reached with this cynical Scottish Lady or the facts of her position explained to the Scottish voters. Losing Scotland during the negotiations would seriously weaken the British hand and would involve you already in a two front diplomatic war in which it would be exceedingly difficult to get satisfaction from either side. I do not suppose any of these quite foreseeable problems occurred to the Brexiteers who were told another £350m per week would be spent on the NHS and it is regrettable that existing FCO 'worse case scenarios' were not aired publicly as they now threaten to come true; I do not blame Sir Ivan Rogers for resigning before the storm crows come home to roost. But then they do not want 'experts' and sadly in David Davis, Alan and Boris Johnson you do not have them. God save the Queen because her subjects and Ministers are making a concerted effort to end the realm.
    You didn't see the wink then? I was meaning to ask why the emoticons dont work on here and where is the old banner graphic?????

    As regards to your various points. I'm not in disagreement that we need freinds and trading partners and that the union is worth preserving. But all I hear is how much England needs everybody else. Not how much they need us. Its become a totally imbalanced debate if you think the EU etc wont continue to need our trade. The problem alot of these EU politicians have is they believe their own rhetoric. They can't see outside the box and how much the world has changed in the last 30 years...Far more business to be had outside the EU than there is in it long term. The EU is a failed concept and in collective denial, unfortunately its taken this little country to point that out.

    As a side note: Really looking forwards to the new Dunkirk movie where we get to relive the last catastrophic moment in British history.

    Leave a comment:


  • snapper
    replied
    Originally posted by Toby View Post
    Incorrect, we need to think more about ourselves , more than ever actually. I'd firstly stop the over sea's aid budget and spend it on bombs and tanks and people to fire them. Trained people that can shoot accurately! ;)
    As Gen Mattis in the US said in regard to hollowing the State Department etc if you do that I am going to need more guns. It is one thing to think more about oneself and another to do it stupidly. You're 'thinking about yourself' has now landed the UK in a constitutional impasse re a Second Scottish Independence Referendum - as many warned.

    To be quite honest this Sturgeon Lady is being highly cynical and there are clear none-senses in the time line she has suggested. For starters if she won a second referendum Scotland would be out of the EU and yet she proposes to have this referendum before the Article 50 exit negotiations are concluded so theoretically Scotland could leave the EU before the rest of the UK which is precisely what she is complaining about and the theoretical reason she cites as to why a second referendum should be held. Nor is it clear that the final deal will be acceptable to most of the population - two years is a long time. If is almost certain that no matter what 'final deal' the current Government comes back not everyone will be happy and it will of itself become a political football. If the Tories are being torn apart and might face obliteration in a subsequent election it is quite possible that a second referendum on the 'final deal' may result. You never know but the UK could remain more in than out while the Scots would be back at stage 1 of negotiating entry to the EU. So yea it is entirely cynical and doesn't make any real sense but the SNP is borderline national socialist of the nastier kind.

    Some may say - I believe tankie did - sod Scotland (or words to that effect) which in a way means sod the union. More "thinking about ourselves" perhaps. In my view this is facile thinking. You remember the 'Auld Alliance' the Scots had with the Frogs? For years after the personal union under the Stuarts (1603?) the French threat manifested itself via Ireland. Churchill wanted to go back into the Irish Republic for Atlantic bases in WW2 and to prevent the enemy exploiting the vacuum so to speak - only the most solemn of assurances (and gold) prevented it; there is a good reason the UK seeks to have good relations with the Irish Republic; it keeps potential enemies out and saves British lives and money. Now at a time when you desire to divorce England from all it's real and not so real allies on the continent to abandon the Union itself as well strikes me a mistake greater than any made before in the long history of English or British foreign policy since Harold Godwinson banished his brother Tostig into the open arms of Harald Hadrada. Again it is one thing to "think more about yourselves" but quite another to think stupidly.

    I hope some compromise can be reached with this cynical Scottish Lady or the facts of her position explained to the Scottish voters. Losing Scotland during the negotiations would seriously weaken the British hand and would involve you already in a two front diplomatic war in which it would be exceedingly difficult to get satisfaction from either side. I do not suppose any of these quite foreseeable problems occurred to the Brexiteers who were told another £350m per week would be spent on the NHS and it is regrettable that existing FCO 'worse case scenarios' were not aired publicly as they now threaten to come true; I do not blame Sir Ivan Rogers for resigning before the storm crows come home to roost. But then they do not want 'experts' and sadly in David Davis, Alan and Boris Johnson you do not have them. God save the Queen because her subjects and Ministers are making a concerted effort to end the realm.
    Last edited by snapper; 24 Mar 17,, 17:48.

    Leave a comment:


  • zara
    replied
    Originally posted by Marko View Post
    The British mind is a fickle one. We are often self-deprecating, mostly genuinely so, and don't give ourselves enough credit for our qualities. Unfortunately, when we do give ourselves credit, we turn into some sort of fascist arrogamus. It is vile. Please can we just go back to thinking less of ourselves. It worked better.
    Not sure what your alluding to here, but if you mean 'Empire 2.0' and the the endless WW2 analogies, I agree. Some of the cabinet sound a lot more like DUP members than conservatives recently.

    Leave a comment:


  • zara
    replied
    Originally posted by Toby View Post
    A lot of effort went into the Düsseldorf's Brexit suicide float ....I wonder which EU department financed it???

    Strangely, its now on its way to the UK to help the British realise their mistake. They don't seem to realise it will have the opposite effect, lol
    Seems to be a lot of people in the 48% groups saying that they shouldn't use the float tomorrow in light of the attack on Wednesday..
    Last edited by zara; 24 Mar 17,, 14:22.

    Leave a comment:


  • Toby
    replied
    Originally posted by Marko View Post
    The British mind is a fickle one.
    The definition of Fickle is 'changes frequently, especially as regards one's loyalties or affections'. I'd say a resounding Bollox on that one!
    We are often self-deprecating,
    As are the Irish, in fact I'd say the Irish are better at it and funnier with it!

    mostly genuinely so,
    Why else would anybody be self deprecating Hier gruppenführer Marko?

    and don't give ourselves enough credit for our qualities.
    Oh really, I can easily compensate for that if you want!

    Unfortunately,
    s'pose it depends if you're interested or not

    when we do give ourselves credit,
    Steady on!

    we turn into some sort of fascist arrogamus.
    Such a sweeping generalisation, I was always told never to generalise

    It is vile.
    Exactly so don't go there

    Please can we just go back to thinking less of ourselves. It worked better.
    Incorrect, we need to think more about ourselves , more than ever actually. I'd firstly stop the over sea's aid budget and spend it on bombs and tanks and people to fire them. Trained people that can shoot accurately! ;)
    Last edited by Toby; 24 Mar 17,, 00:04.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marko
    replied
    The British mind is a fickle one. We are often self-deprecating, mostly genuinely so, and don't give ourselves enough credit for our qualities. Unfortunately, when we do give ourselves credit, we turn into some sort of fascist arrogamus. It is vile. Please can we just go back to thinking less of ourselves. It worked better.

    Leave a comment:


  • Toby
    replied
    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
    It's a negative by default. The left on the axis that is
    lol, quite!

    Leave a comment:


  • Doktor
    replied
    Originally posted by Toby View Post
    If only they could put all that left wing angst and negativity into something positive!
    It's a negative by default. The left on the axis that is

    Leave a comment:


  • Toby
    replied
    If only they could put all that left wing angst and negativity into something positive!

    Leave a comment:


  • snapper
    replied
    Has this thread not gone off track?

    Leave a comment:


  • zara
    replied
    Originally posted by Toby View Post
    A lot of effort went into the Düsseldorf's Brexit suicide float ....I wonder which EU department financed it???

    Strangely, its now on its way to the UK to help the British realise their mistake. They don't seem to realise it will have the opposite effect, lol

    Dusseldorf city council financed it. Just like they finance political floats every year. Not everything has to be some dark EU hand. God! the level of suspicion!

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  • Toby
    replied
    Originally posted by zara View Post
    yes, painfully aware.

    fingers crossed..

    [ATTACH]43469[/ATTACH]
    A lot of effort went into the Düsseldorf's Brexit suicide float ....I wonder which EU department financed it???

    Strangely, its now on its way to the UK to help the British realise their mistake. They don't seem to realise it will have the opposite effect, lol

    Leave a comment:


  • Toby
    replied
    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
    Being in EU or negotiating the way out? What makes no sense?
    We don't need to negotiate, we can just leave and fall in line with WTO rules..However it is politically expedient to negotiate with our EU partners.

    Leave a comment:


  • Doktor
    replied
    Originally posted by Toby View Post
    After much thought and deep consideration, listening to intelligent people from both sides of the argument...only two on here sadly. I would have to say from a business position that WTO rules would work just fine!.....The only reason I can see that we are bothering to negotiate with the EU is political.....which has never had anything to do with business or any sense that a rationally minded person can fathom.
    Being in EU or negotiating the way out? What makes no sense?

    Leave a comment:


  • zara
    replied
    Originally posted by Toby View Post
    After much thought and deep consideration, listening to intelligent people from both sides of the argument...only two on here sadly. I would have to say from a business position that WTO rules would work just fine!.....The only reason I can see that we are bothering to negotiate with the EU is political.....which has never had anything to do with business or any sense that a rationally minded person can fathom.
    Hope your right Toby, because that seems the path of least resistance at the minute...

    Hard to imagine any other outcome.

    Leave a comment:

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