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  • kato
    Counterquestion: Why do some British conservatives want a military coup so badly?

    I mean...
    Or a while ago:

    maybe they could also do one of those poll again to decide whether to have one...

    As for a democratic mandate, since when is Britain a democracy?

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  • tankie

    If the Tory government were to ignore the democratic mandate given to them by the people, if by stealth to cancel Brexit, forcing Britain to remain in the EU against the will of those who voted Leave, effectively becoming a dictatorship.
    Do you think that it would be acceptable for the British armed forces to go into Westminster, remove the government and place Britain under emergency military rule until Article 50 was triggered and a new general election were called?

    Could it come to that ?

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  • tankie
    Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    With Boris Johnson dropping out of the race, it appears our collective dreams of seeing the comb-over the atlantic ocean are dashed. /s
    He would not IMO have made a good PM .Text from Boris below

    Boris Johnson
    15 mins

    Hi folks. Here's the text of a speech I delivered today ahead of the close of nominations for the leadership of the Conservative Party, an election I have decided not to contest:
    Last week the people of this country voted to take a new path and a new direction for Britain in a decision that I passionately support
    and it is vital now to see this moment for what it is
    not as a time to quail
    not as a crisis
    not as an excuse for wobbling or self-doubt
    but as a moment of hope and ambition for Britain
    a time not to fight against the tide of history
    but to take that tide at the flood and sail on to fortune
    This is our chance
    This is our chance to build a Britain not just with a dynamic free market economy
    but an economy where everyone benefits from that success
    because as someone who has campaigned across the country and spoken to thousands of people
    I can tell you there are too many who have not seen their wages rise for years
    and in many cases have seen them fall
    and who cannot understand how it is that the pay packets of FTSE-100 chief executives are now 150 times the average of their companies
    and I am no communist
    and as my time at city hall shows I am a tax-cutting Conservative
    but I want a capitalism that is fairer
    to these forgotten people
    where we invest in the potential of every young person so that they have the skills and the confidence to take advantage of what this country has to offer
    This is our chance to learn the lessons of that referendum campaign
    and as one nation conservatives to speak up for those forgotten people
    to give them the ladder up which they can climb
    and to draw them back into the great Conservative coalition to which they once belonged
    This is our chance to restore Britain’s standing as an independent, sovereign and self-governing nation
    making our own trade policy
    striking deals with the growth economies of the world
    and I can tell you that just in the last few days I have already heard of overtures from
    Australia, New Zealand, India, Malaysia and Singapore
    and the good news for the Americans is that they will be at the front of the queue
    and of course it is our chance to relaunch our commitment to Europe
    to peace and stability on the continent – by giving leadership on defence cooperation, and counter-terrorism, and intelligence-sharing
    and all that makes our continent safer
    This is our chance to assert our values
    to tell the world again what kind of country Britain is
    where we value everyone equally
    no matter where you were born, or when you came to this country or what religion you practise you are part of our great British family
    and we celebrate the contribution made by people who have come to this country to make it better and richer
    whether it is quants in the city of London or anaesthetists in the NHS
    a country where every person regardless of their sexuality can get married and find fulfilment
    - a freedom that must rank as one of the finest of David Cameron’s many fine achievements
    This is our chance to unite our party around those values and at the same time to
    unite our country
    unite our society
    and it is vital now to bring together everybody who campaigned so hard both for the remain and the leave sides
    and I want to see the most talented and capable men and women in our party uniting to take our country forward
    and when I think of the progress that I want Britain to make I cannot help think of how London has been transformed in the last few decades from relative stagnation to the most dynamic urban economy in Europe
    I am immensely proud of what my team achieved at City Hall over the last 8 years
    in which we did everything we could to break down the barriers that restrain the poorest in society
    and to fuel the engines of social mobility
    We brought down crime by almost 20 per cent, the murder rate down by half, bus crime down by 50 per cent
    we cut deaths by fire by 50 per cent and brought down road traffic accidents to the lowest ever level
    and when you think how crime and fire and road accidents disproportionately affect the poorest I believe you can see those reductions as a victory for social justice
    We championed transport – the great equaliser and mobiliser
    moving millions to take advantage of the greatest wealth-creating zone in the whole of Europe
    and also liberating the development of hitherto inaccessible brownfield sites
    so that we were able to build a record number of affordable homes
    more than 100,000
    to regenerate huge parts of east London
    - go to the Olympic park and you will see the astonishing physical legacy from our games of 2012
    and I am proud to say that when I left office last month there were 44,000 sites in this city under construction
    more than at any time in the history of London
    and we did everything we could to invest in our human capital
    helping London’s superb schools and teaching with our excellence funds
    creating more than 200k apprenticeships
    and putting tens of millions of pounds into the pockets of the hardest-working families by championing the London Living Wage
    and I am proud to say that not only is everyone living longer – 18 months for men and women
    but the biggest gains in life expectancy have been made by those on the lowest incomes
    When I became mayor London had 4 of the six poorest boroughs in the UK
    there are now no London boroughs among the 20 most deprived in this country
    it is time for us to invest in the infrastructure and to pursue the fiscal devolution agenda to ensure that London’s success is replicated – as it increasingly is – in the towns and cities across the UK
    and I will not pretend that everything has always been rosy
    Things are sometimes tough, even in the greatest city on earth
    I have led our capital through riots and blizzards and strikes and terrorist attack
    and every time we have bounced back and gone from strength to strength
    I treasure the cover of Time Magazine from eight years ago, which had a picture of various famous London buildings being engulfed by the waves
    London sinking, was the headline
    Well, look at our capital today – still the number one financial centre
    the greatest tech hub in this hemisphere
    and the number one tourist destination on earth – with more people visiting the British Museum than the whole of Belgium
    The prophets of doom were wrong then and they are wrong now
    because London and the whole UK will flourish mightily outside the EU
    since it is manifestly in the economic interests of our friends and partners to agree a deal
    that involves mutual and universal access to our markets, with no tariffs and no quotas
    while we remove ourselves from the EU legal order and the supremacy of the European Court
    and take back control of our immigration policy with a points-based system that is fairer to all the talented people who want to come here
    whether they are from the 7 per cent of the world that is in the EU or the 93 per cent who do not
    because this is our chance to think globally again
    to lift our eyes to the horizon
    to bring our unique British voice and values – powerful, humane, progressive – to the great global forums without being elbowed aside by a supranational body
    and instead of being afflicted by nerves let us seize this chance and make this our moment to stand tall in the world
    That is the agenda for the next PM of this country
    but I must tell you my friends – you who have faithfully waited for the punchline of this speech - that having consulted my colleagues I have concluded this person will not be me
    my role will be to give every possible support to the next administration
    to make sure that we properly fulfil the mandate of the people at the referendum
    and to champion the agenda I believe in
    to stick up for the forgotten people of this country
    and so I believe that if we invest in our children and improve their life chances
    if we continue to fuel the engines of social mobility
    if we build on the great reforming legacy of David Cameron
    if we invest in our infrastructure
    and if we follow a sensible moderate one nation Conservative approach that is simultaneously tax-cutting and pro-enterprise
    then I believe this country can be better and more wonderful and, yes, greater than ever
    I want to thank my colleagues in parliament, my team and everyone who has supported our vision of a better Britain
    Last edited by tankie; 30 Jun 16,, 18:53.

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  • SteveDaPirate
    With Boris Johnson dropping out of the race, it appears our collective dreams of seeing the comb-over the atlantic ocean are dashed. /s

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  • tankie
    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    Seems so , but the remain side told lies as they all do , but at the mo , the UK is still in the EU and there are moves to make sure we stay there ,MP,s and their high flying lawyers are busy trying to find loopholes (and they will ) to make sure democracy is kicked in the tits , again , watch this space .

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  • citanon

    Out of the Brexit Turmoil: Opportunity
    Europe should not treat Britain as a prison escapee but as a potential compatriot. And the U.S. has a vital role to play.



    By Henry A. Kissinger
    June 28, 2016 6:03 p.m. ET
    The cascade of commentary on Britain’s decision to leave institutional Europe has described the epochal event primarily in the vocabulary of calamity. However, the coin of the realm for statesmen is not anguish or recrimination; it should be to transform setback into opportunity.

    The impact of the British vote is so profound because the emotions it reflects are not confined to Britain or even Europe. The popular reaction to European Union institutions (as reflected in public-opinion polls) is comparable in most major countries, especially France and Spain. The multilateral approach based on open borders for trade and the movement of peoples is increasingly being challenged, and now an act of direct democracy intended to reaffirm the status quo has rendered a damning verdict. However challenging this expression of popular sentiment, ignoring the concerns it manifests is a path to greater disillusionment.

    Brexit is a classic illustration of the law of unintended consequences. The British government sought a Remain vote to end, once and for all, domestic disputes about Europe in a minority of the Conservative Party and among fringe populist groups. Many backers of the Leave campaign were surprised by their success, having understood their political mission initially in much less sweeping terms.


    All these elements have been overwhelmed because the European vision elaborated over decades has been developing a sclerotic character. Internal debates of Europe have increasingly concentrated on structural contradictions. In the process, the vision that motivates sacrifice is weakening.

    The founders of European unity understood the ultimate scope of their project. It was, on one level, a rejection of the worst consequences of European divisions, especially the traumatic wars that had killed tens of millions of Europeans in the 20th century alone. But it was also an affirmation of the values by which Europe had become great.

    The Europe of the founders’ youth had thrived by the elaboration of the nation-state, which on one hand competed for pre-eminence, but at the same time evolved a common culture. Its principles of democracy and constitutionalism were spread around the world, even while respect for the dignity of the individual had been violated under colonialism. The European vision sought to maintain the dynamism reflected in Europe’s historical achievements while tempering the competition which had, by 1945, nearly led to their destruction.

    Too much of the Europe of today is absorbed in management of structural problems rather than the elaboration of its purposes. From globalization to migration, the willingness to sacrifice is weakening. But a better future cannot be reached without some sacrifice of the present. A society reluctant to accept this verity stagnates and, over the decades, consumes its substance.

    Inevitably a gap arises between the institutions and their responsibilities, which accounts for increasing populist pressures. The deepest challenge to the EU is not its management but its ultimate goals. In a world in which upheavals based on conflicting values span the continents, a common act of imagination by Europe and its Atlantic partners is badly needed.

    Instead, European leadership is now faced with an unexpected challenge. Under the terms of its charter, the EU is obliged to negotiate with a principal member over the terms of withdrawal. Britain will want to maintain extensive ties with Europe while lifting or easing the constraints of its many legislative and bureaucratic requirements. The EU leadership has almost the opposite incentive. It will not wish to reward Britain’s Leave majority by granting Britain better terms than it enjoyed as a full member. Hence a punitive element is likely to be inherent in the EU bargaining position.

    Many of us who have grown up with and admired the vision of European unity hope that the EU will transcend itself, by seeking its vocation not in penalizing the recalcitrant but by negotiating in a manner that restores the prospects of unity. The EU should not treat Britain as an escapee from prison but as a potential compatriot.

    Punishing the U.K. will not solve the question of how to operate a common currency in the absence of a common fiscal policy among countries with disparate economic capacities, or of how to define a union whose ability to achieve common political strategies lags fundamentally behind its economic and administrative capacities.

    By the same token, Britain needs to put forward the concept of autonomy for which its people voted in a manner that embraces ultimate cooperation. Britain and Europe together must consider how they might return, at least partially, to their historical role as shapers of international order.

    In recent decades, Europe has retreated to the conduct of soft power. But besieged as it is on almost all frontiers by upheavals and migration, Europe, including Britain, can avoid turning into a victim of circumstance only by assuming a more active role. These vistas cannot yet be discussed at a geopolitical level, but the EU’s leaders should be able to form discrete and discreet panels for exploring them. In this manner, the Leave vote can serve as a catharsis.

    The United States has encouraged the European Union from its beginning but has had difficulty adjusting to the achievement that followed. When the EU idea was first put forward by Jean Monnet at the end of World War II and advanced by the Marshall Plan, the U.S. was the indispensable contributor for international security and economic progress. Given the recovery of contemporary Europe, the American role needs to be redefined to a new kind of leadership, moving from dominance to persuasion.

    The manner in which the U.S. administration and other advocates of Remain sought to influence the Brexit vote illustrates the point. The threat that without the support of Europe, a solitary Britain would move to the end of the line in negotiations with Washington reversed the historical sequence of that relationship. The “special relationship” is founded in the origins of America, in a common language and in a comparable system of political values reinforced by fighting together in common wars. The idea of the special relationship was enunciated by Winston Churchill not as a refutation of a multilateral world, but as the guarantor of its values in the hard times sure to follow World War II.

    That special relationship is needed for the Atlantic world to traverse the present crisis. A disintegrating Europe could subside into an impotent passivity that will shrivel the entire Atlantic partnership, which represents one of the greatest achievements of the past century. Britain, in whatever mutually respectful legal status it arranges with Europe, is an essential element in this design. Its history and emotion are Atlantic; its current necessity requires as well a link to Europe. Today’s established international order was founded upon conceptions that emerged from the British Isles, were carried by Europe around the world, and ultimately took deep root in North America. American leadership in reinvigorating the contemporary order is imperative.

    The Brexit vote has unleashed the anxieties of two continents and of all those who rely upon the stability that their union of purpose provides. The needed restoration of faith will not come through recriminations. To inspire the confidence of the world, Europe and America must demonstrate confidence in themselves.

    Mr. Kissinger served as national-security adviser and secretary of state under Presidents Nixon and Ford.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
    Frankly, I was responding to OOE's comments, more than rehashing them. I also stated that it's not an important issue.
    I am going to repeat a very wise quote. Say what you mean and mean what you say or no one will know what you mean when you say.

    I am a freaking soldier. I take your words at point blank value.

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  • Chunder
    Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
    The 'how dare you's' will continue for months. Fortunately the politicians don't get to make the economic decisions. I rather suspect Germany's trade surplus of E51b with the UK will rather dampen the renewed 'nationalism' of the EU.
    *cough* there's nothing quite like a rich post industrialist country leaving the tariff zone with which you hold a surplus. *cough*

    The statements are probably as much setting oneself up politically to weather the seas of industrial challenges as the 'How dare you's'.

    Pretty much says it all. "Legally you're still with us, legally you're still contributing, but you're not invited to our council".

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  • citanon
    Originally posted by Goatboy View Post

    Third: We can't reach resolution I think, and I agree to move onto other aspects of the topic. I would have shortened my response to you but I felt the need to respond to your points. I'm done if you are.....
    Sounds good. Let's move on.

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  • kato
    The German chambers of commerce are predicting a reduction in exports to Britain short-term to be solely attributable to the weak pound. Long-term, there's the professional expectation of a 2-3% loss in British GDP over the next ten years as a result of a Brexit, which the chambers of commerce think is set at too little a loss; in addition, for German companies operating in the British market, British legislation with regard to standards and regulations will become problematic especially in its difference to the EU - although that's not considered pressing and something businesses will be able to work with.

    That also all still assumes the UK getting some sort of free-trade agreement with the EU "near-term" and being willing to enter a freedom-of-movement treaty as well. Should freedom-of-movement not occur they expect that a number of companies will leave the British market. Should the UK break up following an independence referendum by Scotland they expect "larger-scale volatility in the market"; longer-term an exit decision of the UK is expected to have repercussions on globalization growth worldwide as the UK will lose political influence on a global level.

    Note: The above is the capitalist opinion. That's from an interview with the head of our local chamber of commerce done weeks before the Brexit referendum (talking about the likely consequences of a Leave decision). And yes, that interview pretty acurately predicted the current situation in all its details, except perhaps for the Brits regretting their decision.

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  • Parihaka
    The 'how dare you's' will continue for months. Fortunately the politicians don't get to make the economic decisions. I rather suspect Germany's trade surplus of E51b with the UK will rather dampen the renewed 'nationalism' of the EU.

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  • kato
    European Parliament session today was apparently fun.

    Farage: "None of you has ever held a proper job."
    (others booing)
    Schulz (at plenum, calling them to order): "You're behaving like UKIP usually does it here."
    Schulz (at Farage, telling him not to insult the others): "You shouldn't be drawing conclusions regarding other people's past from your own."


    Juncker: "We have to respect the British decision for Brexit..."
    (UKIP representatives applaude him)
    Juncker: "That's the last time you're applauding in here. Anyway, i thought you were in favour of leaving the Union. I'm really surprised you're here. Why are you here?"


    Schulz (opening the session): "With deep regret we've heard the decision of the United Kingdom to leave us, but will remain connected in political and human relationships".
    [note: the first half this is exactly the standard closing sentence in any German letter of reference given to a leaving employee - the second part would need to be a "we wish them all the best in their professional future", and omitting or changing it is supposed to confer that you're glad you're rid of them]
    Last edited by kato; 29 Jun 16,, 20:34.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    As it should be.

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  • kato
    I don't know if it hit anglophone media yet, but all 27 member state state leaders as well as the EU Commission have publically rejected Cameron's request of informal negotiations before declaring independence... err... Brexit. Cameron was not invited to todays sessions of the EU Council in which all member state governments participate.

    Merkel, rather significantly, has switched over from her previous "let's give them us much time as they need" to a "you should declare that you're exiting asap" stance. In addition Merkel, Juncker and the current EU and Polish President Tusk have all declared that there will be no access to the EU market for Britain unless it allows full freedom of movement for EU citizens. The Polish president joining in on this demand is relevant insofar as the largest single foreigner group in the UK are Poles and insofar as Poland, at EU level, has previously been a staunch Cameron ally.

    Both Juncker and Tusk have also declared that there will be no negotiations before a declaration. Juncker has notified the EU governmental staff - i.e. the director generals and such - in writing that even for their field and completely informally they are not allowed to have any negotiations with British representatives. This of course includes the British director generals.

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  • Doktor
    Can you share it with us? I am genuinely curious

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