Brexit

[zara]

Shame about the £350m

Never mind the non-existant £350m a week, the Treasury estimates that exiting the single market will cost £66 billion a year! That over half the cost of the NHS and about 1.5 times our military budget. Voteing to leave the EU was the single MOST STUPID thing this country has done in a long long time. The brexiteers sold this fantasy to the public by wrapping themselves in the flag, demonising foreigners and summoning up images of Empire, Monarchy and cricket on the village green.

The pound was trading for less than euro in airports yesterday, the first bank has confirmed that its leaving London and prices are starting to rise. I just pray that the fantasists who bought this 'brexit bounce' illusion will finally wake up and hear the canary in the coalmine. It's not too late to change this ruinous course and avert the economic wreckage of post brexit Britain.

[tankie]

What exactly do you mean ,,its not too late to change this course , ?? tell PM May that ,we voted out and out it is , what would you like zara , ref after ref until you get the result you want or is it ,,fuck democracy . ? After 45 years of the EU dictatorship we have had 5.5 months of nearly being out and countries are waiting and are doing ,business with us .Wait and see what the future brings zara .

[snapper]

And only when and if the future starts costing £66bn per year another vote?

[tankie]

Wait and see snapper , all these post arguments were brought up before the vote , remain lost , work now for the UKs future instead of predicting death doom n gloom , anyway it wont matter soon as WW3 is just around the corner , comrade Putin is a tad miffed . And the great ficticious never gonna happen EU army will gallop across the hills flags flying bugles blowing and , saveeeeeeeee us all .

[snapper]

My point is that some may consider it somewhat foolhardy to wait until the economic mess arrives in the UK. As regards the 'EU army' I am against it in principle as it would have the effect of diminishing the Trans Atlantic alliance on which ALL the 'west' depends. I am delighted of course that you consider Uncle Vova to be getting miffed. Given the families in Ukraine and Syria who are mourning lost loved ones I think him being a little 'miffed' a small payback in earnest of the full war crimes trial I believe he deserves.

[tankie]

Haha , aye seems like some nasty pasty has pissed in his vodka . Thing is tho , when/if / it kicks off theres gonna be nooooo winners . Although kiwi land looks good to be in . safishhhhh . And if anyone deserves the Hague for warcrimes B,liar fits the bill .

[snapper]

A little off the topic of Brexit but that is exactly the point and why it is bluff... Because they cannot even win in Ukraine with 'conventional' forces they had to shout loud about their nuclear arsenal - and brandish it as in Koenigsberg, which of course was never 'Russian land' but originally Prussian. But to borrow the comment of a colleague "no man who has botox treatment twice a year is going to use nuclear weapons" and they are no more suicidal than us. The A2AD problems they are attempting to create are real and serious but the shouting is needed mostly for domestic purposes and because they are weak. When you have a big stick it speaks for itself and you do not need to shout.

[zara]

What exactly do you mean ,,its not too late to change this course , ?? tell PM May that ,we voted out and out it is , what would you like zara , ref after ref until you get the result you want or is it ,,fuck democracy . ? After 45 years of the EU dictatorship we have had 5.5 months of nearly being out and countries are waiting and are doing ,business with us. Wait and see what the future brings zara .

Change course. Leave the EU if we must, but not the single market. They do NOT have a mandate for that.

And please give up this tabloid 'EU dictatorship' nonsense. Do you think Allepo would be allowed a democratic vote to secede from Syria? Could Chagang hold a vote to leave North Korea or Manicaland could hold a plebiscite to leave Zimbabwe. Of course not. You place Donald Tusk alongside the likes of Assad and Gaddaffi. Please just STOP it. At best its Hyperbole at worst its offensive.

[zara]

My point is that some may consider it somewhat foolhardy to wait until the economic mess arrives in the UK. As regards the 'EU army' I am against it in principle as it would have the effect of diminishing the Trans Atlantic alliance on which ALL the 'west' depends. I am delighted of course that you consider Uncle Vova to be getting miffed. Given the families in Ukraine and Syria who are mourning lost loved ones I think him being a little 'miffed' a small payback in earnest of the full war crimes trial I believe he deserves.

I was in favour of the EU army as long as it had British leadership. I think with Britain, it could become a strong 'eastern pillar' of NATO. I fear without Britain, you are right - it may try to supplant NATO. Yet another dumb reason for leaving the EU.

With Russia's antics at the minute, NATO hasn't been more important for many decades (for Europe at least)

[DOR]

I was in favour of the EU army as long as it had British leadership. I think with Britain, it could become a strong 'eastern pillar' of NATO. I fear without Britain, you are right - it may try to supplant NATO. Yet another dumb reason for leaving the EU.

With Russia's antics at the minute, NATO hasn't been more important for many decades (for Europe at least)

An EU Army with British leadership isn't an EU Army.
It's a British Army with Foreign Legion characteristics.

[snapper]

If that were true then since SACEUR is by tradition a US appointment...?

[SteveDaPirate]

I wouldn't be surprised if an EU Army becomes a real thing without the UK throwing a spanner in the works. It sounds like the French, Germans, and Italians are all on board to give the idea a try.

I haven't heard about much pushback from the US on the idea either, since more European defense spending is well and good from a US perspective, and a military counterweight to Russia is something we've been trying to establish for decades.

It highlights one of the reasons I was surprised the UK decided to withdraw from the EU, since such action compromises the UK's ability to prevent further European integration that could lead to the formation of an actual superpower across the channel that would inevitably draw the UK into it's orbit.

[tankie]

Change course. Leave the EU if we must, but not the single market. They do NOT have a mandate for that.

And please give up this tabloid 'EU dictatorship' nonsense. Do you think Allepo would be allowed a democratic vote to secede from Syria? Could Chagang hold a vote to leave North Korea or Manicaland could hold a plebiscite to leave Zimbabwe. Of course not. You place Donald Tusk alongside the likes of Assad and Gaddaffi. Please just STOP it. At best its Hyperbole at worst its offensive.

EU not a dictatorship , ??? yea ok whatever floats your boat , tusk , rumpoye,schultze ,merkel , etc etc and the rest , worship them all you wish , 17+ Brits , poms , etc , million dont . Get over it , we have democratically voted OUT . live with it here and work for it , or leave to Eire .and the remoaners , most of which couldnt be arsed going to vote thinking it was a forgone conclusion ,and want a rerun until they get the vote they want , I FIND OFFENSIVE ,,, leave , and best of British to you .

[kato]

I wouldn't be surprised if an EU Army becomes a real thing without the UK throwing a spanner in the works. It sounds like the French, Germans, and Italians are all on board to give the idea a try.

Doubt it'll ever become an army in the conventional sense. Perhaps a "mini NATO" with tighter rules, sort of a more successful rehash of the Western European Union - that's very feasible, can build on existing treaties and connections, and doesn't threaten individual sovereignty to the same extent - despite what one might think, the biggest proponents of a decentralized "Europe of Regions" with as little European commitment as possible (... other than the Brits) are still the Germans.

It highlights one of the reasons I was surprised the UK decided to withdraw from the EU, since such action compromises the UK's ability to prevent further European integration that could lead to the formation of an actual superpower across the channel that would inevitably draw the UK into it's orbit.

The vote was meant and calculated to underline Cameron's commitment to prevent European unity from within by getting a credibly high, but of course not succeeding result. That would have given him the necessary munitions to dig even more of a special British status out of the EU. Except that backfired on Cameron, and now they're gonna feel the full weight of that decision.

I think with Britain, it could become a strong 'eastern pillar' of NATO.

Given British defence spending decisions it's not really like they'd contribute much to such a pillar. There's a single nation with both the capability and the willpower to become the foundation of such a pillar, and that one's just across the channel from the UK.

as in Koenigsberg, which of course was never 'Russian land' but originally Prussian

Gorbachev actually tried to sell Königsberg to Kohl in 1990. Not officially of course. Wormed through the Red Army, the KGB and diplomats in Bonn who politely declined after checking back with the government.

Northern East Prussia, the today Kaliningrad enclave, wasn't "orginally Prussian". It was a colony outside Germany, occupied from the Pruzzi pretty recently, around the 1220s. The Pruzzi under various names ruled the area since around the 1st century AD; before that, another group of unknown name, but possibly related, ruled it since the 6th century BC. Even under occupation the Pruzzi were at best as German as the Sorbish minority in Germany are today. Since the invading knights did not have a common culture they ultimately - after about 300 years - formed their own nation state and transformed what the previous inhabitant group called themselves to name it.

[snapper]

I was in favour of the EU army as long as it had British leadership.

It is unlikely any European force will continually come under one nations leadership. Some fairly detailed discussion on this sort of thing took place last year and into this year with regard to LITPOLUKRBRIG or the 'International Brigade' (comprised of units from Lithuania, Poland and Ukraine) and in regard to V4EUBAT (Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary comprising the Visegrad Group). With regard to LITPOLUKRBRIG, which was the immeadiate 'pressing' decision it was agreed that a 3yr rotation of the posts of Commander, Deputy Commander and Chief of Staff where each nation held one of those three positions would be instituted at first. So for example the current Commander (Brig General Adam Joks) is Polish, Deputy Commander Colonel Volodymyr Yudanov is Ukrainian and Chief of Staff Lt Col Eligijus Senulis is Lithuanian. They are in position for three years and then the command arrangements in theory would switch around by 'stepping up' as it were (so the Ukrainian Officer would become Commander, Lithuanian Deputy Commander etc..). It is hoped however that before the first command rotation a larger and more widespread arrangement combining LITPOLUKRBRIG with V4EUBAT and a Bulgarian - Romanian - Ukrainian Brigade (BULROMUKRBRIG) the whole combined then coming under a single Command position rotation similar to the LITPOLUKRBRIG formula.

I haven't heard about much pushback from the US on the idea either, since more European defense spending is well and good from a US perspective, and a military counterweight to Russia is something we've been trying to establish for decades.

The question is whether we could trust the French and Germans etc to use such a force as 'counterweight to Russia'? The answer realistically is that those threatened (and suffering from) Muscovite aggression cannot rely on it. Thus an Intermarium would be become necessity and Europe would be divided. For CEE nations a form of NATO-bis (an proposal of Lech Wałęsa) allowing for a CEE alliance within the NATO framework would probably be best if Ukraine and Belarus could be brought into the bis part. Otherwise a form of insurance from a proposed Franco German EU army with no uncertain ambiguities - stationing of troops in the Baltics etc would probably be required to gain agreement in Warsawa, Buda, Wilno, Bucharest and Kyiv etc... If the EU want to do what NATO does then it will have to prove it or the CEE nations will go their own way. Even should such a force come into being - and the designation of the V4EUBAT suggests it is awaiting some form of European SACUER the military value of any such 'army' in a 'union' so confused and divided would be seriously diminished by the structural problems within the EU itself. I am not 'anti European' but on the contrary just wish the structure and organisation was a. effective at decision making b. transparent and democratic and in general was not dominated by wrangling for sovereign advantage.

EU not a dictatorship , ??? yea ok whatever floats your boat , tusk , rumpoye,schultze ,merkel , etc etc and the rest , worship them all you wish.

There is a difference between a 'democratic deficit' and a dictatorship.

Gorbachev actually tried to sell Königsberg to Kohl in 1990. Not officially of course. Wormed through the Red Army, the KGB and diplomats in Bonn who politely declined after checking back with the government.
Northern East Prussia, the today Kaliningrad enclave, wasn't "orginally Prussian". It was a colony outside Germany, occupied from the Pruzzi pretty recently, around the 1220s. The Pruzzi under various names ruled the area since around the 1st century AD; before that, another group of unknown name, but possibly related, ruled it since the 6th century BC. Even under occupation the Pruzzi were at best as German as the Sorbish minority in Germany are today. Since the invading knights did not have a common culture they ultimately - after about 300 years - formed their own nation state and transformed what the previous inhabitant group called themselves to name it.

Thankyou but why and how then, presuming these 'Pruzzi' were 'proto Prussians' did the Prussians become Germanised?