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  • Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Great, then in 10 years ask to be let back in under article 49 and get better terms. Well assuming that the EU is still around, is economically better off than the UK as a whole and hasn't turned into a regulatory monster like the US federal government.
    In 10 years I see the UK in much better shape while the EU is writhing on its death bed because those countries with the money have pulled out leaving the broke ones to fend for themselves financially and having to deal with all the fun of recent unchecked immigration. As for the pain today...you have to break some eggs to make an omelet, Those that have a say are simply punishing them for leaving but this can not last so short term only. Besides, they were already feeling pain or there never would have been a question to leave in the first place.
    Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by snapper View Post
      I am a little older than 24.
      Those people you are touting sure as hell don't agree with your fighting Russia to the last Western European for the Ukraine. That's the peace, love, slash military budget kind of European wide peace. There is a weird disconnect, as usual, with your thinking and predictions of doom and gloom.

      Germany gets full control of the continent... it is an appalling miscalculation the consequence of which are only dark.
      Germany is now freer to do a deal with Muscovy and that makes war and the break up of the EU as a whole more likely.
      Preventing war in Europe depends on two relationships; Germany and France and Germany and Muscovy. The point is to keep the Germans onside. This is now less likely - as well as the continuation of EU sanctions etc - as a result of this disaster.
      Maybe we need to ally with the HRE against the Prussians and Saxony. Or team with France against the House of Hohenzollern. Or maybe ally with Russia, Saxony, and Prussia against France, Austria, and Italy to control Poland.

      Regardless Hessian Grenadier caps need to come back in some way.

      I am sure not many of those college liberals voted with frothing hatred of Russians their minds.

      There's something pernicious about the old figuring they had the right to decide the future for the young, especially since a significant fraction of the staunchest pro-Brexit folks won't be around 10 years hence, while the young, who happen to be the most adamant about staying in the EU will almost all still be alive and voting.
      It's called a Democracy. One could also suggest the college crowd shouldn't vote at all as they aren't in the workforce.

      Germany fears Brexit could trigger domino effect, leading other nations to exit EU
      Published June 25, 2016 FoxNews.com
      http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/06...o-exit-eu.html

      Fallout from Britain's vote to leave the EU

      As the European Union's founding nations rushed to an emergency meeting Saturday to consider their future, German Chancellor Angela Merkel's government reportedly fears the United Kingdom could be just the first of several nations to pull out of the alliance.

      A German government-run newspaper pleaded for the EU not to sever ties completely with Britain -- otherwise France, the Netherlands, Hungary, Austria and Finland could lose any incentive to stay. The paper, Die Welt, called for keeping the UK an "associated partner country."

      Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, celebrated the Brexit vote results, describing the EU as "doomed" and "dying." Far-right leaders in France and the Netherlands called for their own referendums on staying in the EU, Sky News reported.

      Foreign ministers of Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg met in Berlin on Saturday and said in a statement that they wanted Britain to quickly invoke the article in the EU charter allowing it to start negotiations on departure.

      Regarding the other members, they said "We have to find better ways of dealing with these different levels" of commitment to closer European unity. Founding nations want to increase political and economic cooperation but some newer nations are wary of giving up more sovereignty.

      "We are aware that discontent with the functioning of the EU as it is today is manifest in parts of our societies. We take this very seriously and are determined to make the EU work better for all our citizens," it said.

      An online petition seeking a second Brexit referendum drew more than 1 million names, a measure of the extraordinary divisiveness of Thursday's vote to leave the 28-nation bloc. The online petition site hosted by the House of Commons website crashed Friday under the weight of the activity as officials said they'd seen unprecedented interest in the measure.

      Scotland planned to launch immediate talks with European Union nations and institutions to find a way to remain in the bloc despite Britain's vote to leave, Scottish leader Nicola Sturgeon said. She added that a new referendum on Scottish independence from the United Kingdom was "very much on the table."

      "Brussels must hear the voice of the people, this is the biggest lesson from this decision," Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban reacted. Danish Prime Minister Lars Loekke Rasmussen said Britain's exit "will echo for years to come and change the Europe as we know it."

      Merkel said it "shouldn't take forever" for Britain to deliver formal notification that it wants to leave the European Union but made clear that the matter was in London's hands.

      Merkel said Saturday at a news conference in Potsdam, outside Berlin: "To be honest, it shouldn't take forever, that's right -- but I would not fight over a short period of time."

      The German leader said she was seeking an "objective, good" climate in talks on Britain's exit. Merkel said that there is "no need to be particularly nasty in any way in the negotiations; they must be conducted properly."

      France's foreign minister said he was hoping Britain would name a new prime minister in the coming days to speed up its departure.

      That timeframe is highly unrealistic given the political turmoil in Britain. Instead it is likely to take months to name a replacement to Prime Minister David Cameron, who is resigning and wants his successor to handle the departure negotiations.

      French Foreign Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault said Saturday "they must designate a new prime minister, which would certainly require several days."
      Last edited by troung; 26 Jun 16,, 02:37.
      To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

      Comment


      • of course the best argument against "leave" is that Donald Trump is for it.

        made me seriously re-consider all my pro-leave arguments right there.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

        Comment


        • of course the best argument against "leave" is that Donald Trump is for it.
          The Donald's comb over > Snapper/18-24 year old bloggers.
          To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

          Comment


          • Originally posted by citanon View Post
            Among some of the wise peace loving citizens of the world who voted against Brexit:

            https://youtu.be/mbazd5XBItk

            This next video is probably more like Snappers' people.

            https://youtu.be/eIdWYMvDsXU

            The blonde has a future as a vice reporter. =)

            Edit: ahh, now this makes even more sense:

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_JD_Porter
            Thanks for that. My opinion about Millennials hasn't changed. They need to STFU. I haven't seen a group with such little common sense and street smarts.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              The old made the deal. The old didn't like the way the deal turned out. The old has the right to leave the deal that they've made in the first place.

              As much as I love my daughter, she has no say on how I spend her inheritance, aka my money.
              ^+1

              Comment


              • Could we possibly be more over the top?

                http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/25/opinio...ser/index.html

                (CNN)The numbing news that Britain has voted to leave the European Union is the worst step backward for Europe -- and for Western civilization -- since the end of World War II.
                There were tens of millions of military and civilian casualties in Europe from that hideous conflict, and it left much of the continent in ruins. But in Europe, World War II also had two extremely positive effects. First, unlike the United States, where there were relatively few casualties at home, the personal experience of the horrors of war by millions of European civilians inoculated their countries against all-out war for the next seven decades.

                And, second, within a remarkable group of forward-looking men and women, the end of the war spurred one of the greatest impulses toward unity of all time. These were the visionary politicians like André Boulloche, a hero of the French Resistance, who pushed for the creation of what would eventually become the European Union.
                Boulloche paid for his heroism as a Resistance fighter with a year inside three German concentration camps, and the loss of half of his family after they were arrested by the Gestapo, a saga I recount in my recent book "The Cost of Courage." But like so many other extraordinary European survivors of World War II, Boulloche managed to transform his terrible suffering into a force for good. He became a Socialist politician, the mayor of a small French city near the border with Germany, and a member of the National Assembly.


                In a supreme act of intellectual jiu-jitsu, Boulloche took all of the ghastly energy from his wartime incarceration and turned it around to fuel a lifelong devotion to reconciliation between France and Germany. As Socialist leader and future French President François Mitterrand declared at Boulloche's funeral, "When he turned toward the Germans, he was the first among us who knew how to say, 'My friends.'"
                It was the determination of men and women like Boulloche, throughout Europe, which propelled the movement toward unity. Beginning with the Treaty of Rome, a 1957 modest economic agreement signed by France, West Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, Belgium and the Netherlands, the experiment gradually grew into to the behemoth of a nearly-borderless alliance. It reached its zenith of 28 members with the admission of Croatia in 2013.
                Ironically, for many years, it was French President Charles de Gaulle who was the staunchest opponent of expansion of the European Economic Community, because he saw Britain's entrance as a Trojan horse for the power of the United States. The United Kingdom, Denmark, Ireland, and Norway applied for membership in 1961, but it was only after de Gaulle was long gone from the political scene that Britain was finally admitted.

                (The effort of British Prime Minister Harold Wilson to overcome de Gaulle's opposition was memorialized in a famous 1960s cover of the Economist, featuring dozens of images of Wilson making every imaginable facial expression, paired with multiple images of one indomitable de Gaulle, making the same grimace over and over again. "Keep Right On," was the magazine's advice to Wilson, but it was his successor, Edward Heath, who was finally able to push his nation into the European Community in 1973.)

                This historic change in Britain's relationship with the rest of continent seemed to be consolidated for good in 1994, when the tunnel under the English Channel was finally opened, and Queen Elizabeth II traveled on the Eurostar to Calais to inaugurate it with Mitterrand. But nothing is forever when politicians seize on the fear of "the other" -- in this case, a surge of immigrants from the Middle East -- and use it to promote disastrous policies like Britain's exit from Europe.
                As Felix Salmon wrote at Fusion.net, what happened in Britain was "a wholly unnecessary vote, which was called by Britain's gormless prime minister, David Cameron, for the sole purpose of trying to engineer a tactical advantage in last year's general election." As Salmon also points out, "Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU; Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain. England drove this result, and specifically Little England -- the older, whiter areas outside the big cities. The Leave campaign might have paid superficial lip service to the idea of a global Britain with more room for Bangladeshi immigrants, but make no mistake: this was a racist campaign that ended up causing both death and disaster."

                Many European diplomats think Britain's decision must be used to strengthen the community that remains. "These are difficult times," François Delattre, the French ambassador to the United Nations, told me in an interview, "and we must chase these evil winds of populism by addressing the real issues facing our democracies."


                Trump claims Brexit is preview of things to come 03:43
                Peter Wittig, the German ambassador to the United States, echoed his French colleague. "This is a really serious setback," Wittig told me. "We have to prove to the citizens that the European Union is there for them -- that it is a union for the citizens and not a union for the bureaucrats."
                My hope is that the British vote will also have a positive effect on the United States. Progressive voters must recognize all the similarities between the Brexit appeals to racism and Donald Trump's attacks on Muslims and Mexicans -- and then they must mobilize. The Democratic Party must come together in November to make sure that the United States doesn't take the same disastrous step backward that Britain took Thursday.
                Some still don't get it. I don't think it was so much due to populism for the average voter as much as being told what to do from Brussels. Suppose there was an America EU combining all from Central America to Canada with the HQ being Toronto or Mexico City. Do you think any American would sign on. Or the HQ in Washington? Do you think any Canadian or Mexican would sign on? Not likely in either scenario and yet Britain is expected to sign on for Brussels.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tankie View Post


                  As soon as the results were announced, the petition began rising by approximately 1,000 signatures every minute until the incredible volume of petitioners crashed the website according to The Independent.

                  The petition reads, “We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based on a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum.”

                  By law, Parliament must consdier for debate any petition that receives over 100,000 signatures. At the time of this writing, the petition was well over 145,000 signees and climbing.


                  So they want to win by default. Since the chances of getting 75% would be very high, the fact that it wasn't achieved would mean that we can't leave the EU until that crossbar is hit.

                  I can't wait for this to move on to counting chads...Click image for larger version

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                  • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                    Great, then in 10 years ask to be let back in under article 49 and get better terms. Well assuming that the EU is still around, is economically better off than the UK as a whole and hasn't turned into a regulatory monster like the US federal government.
                    The consensus is that leaving is permanent. The mere "seesawing" back and forth, enter....leave....enter is enough to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth, especially remaining EU nations.

                    But, lets get real. Scotland, which overwhelmingly voted to remain, is not going to stand for the English dragging it kicking and screaming out of the EU. Another referendum is a foregone conclusion. And with that in mind, the referendum question should have been:

                    1) leave the EU, and split the UK into pieces
                    2) remain in the EU and the UK remains united.

                    How would THAT vote have turned out?

                    Comment


                    • Well here it starts, from George Soros of all people:

                      http://mobile.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSKCN0ZB0VI

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
                        The consensus is that leaving is permanent. The mere "seesawing" back and forth, enter....leave....enter is enough to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth, especially remaining EU nations.

                        But, lets get real. Scotland, which overwhelmingly voted to remain, is not going to stand for the English dragging it kicking and screaming out of the EU. Another referendum is a foregone conclusion. And with that in mind, the referendum question should have been:

                        1) leave the EU, and split the UK into pieces
                        2) remain in the EU and the UK remains united.

                        How would THAT vote have turned out?
                        neither article 49 (admission) or 50 (secession) mention any special terms for re-entry. But if done is done, how can Scotland get another vote?

                        I predict the college kids will graduate, get jobs, see how miserable Europe becomes as a federal super state where the poor while not upwardly mobile, do have the ability to move from lower to higher welfare till they break the bank and then move on. They will think, boy, our parents really did know what they were talking about and toss back a bint and celebrate the divine luck that made them British freemen, not Euroserfs.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          The old made the deal. The old didn't like the way the deal turned out. The old has the right to leave the deal that they've made in the first place.

                          As much as I love my daughter, she has no say on how I spend her inheritance, aka my money.
                          But you own your money, not your daughter. Every voting citizen of the UK "owns" the UK, both the young and the old. I don't think the "old" figured on Scotland ripping itself away from England, Northern Ireland too perhaps, because that's much more likely now.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            neither article 49 (admission) or 50 (secession) mention any special terms for re-entry. But if done is done, how can Scotland get another vote?
                            Just meet the list of criteria for entry. Should be a piece of cake. There's no reason why the EU wouldn't fast-track Scotland's entry. Sweden joined in a hurry, from application to accession in 3.5 years. Copenhagen requirements are already basically met. Besides, Of course Scotland would have to secede from the UK first.

                            I predict the college kids will graduate, get jobs, see how miserable Europe becomes as a federal super state where the poor while not upwardly mobile, do have the ability to move from lower to higher welfare till they break the bank and then move on. They will think, boy, our parents really did know what they were talking about and toss back a bint and celebrate the divine luck that made them British freemen, not Euroserfs.
                            Just because the EU isn't perfect, doesn't mean cut and run is a good idea. EU reform is an excellent idea, one that's needed, and one which the UK could have helped mold from within. But I don't think Germans, Irish, Swedes and Czechs are in danger of serfdom. The fact is that there are enormous advantages for nations integrating into the EU. Disadvantages too, but dystopian superstate isn't one of them. The British people were free before they left the EU, and free after. just marginalized, fractured and increasingly frustrated with those Brexit supporters who made a bad call.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
                              But you own your money, not your daughter.
                              And the old owns property. The young don't. The young can move and are moving. They don't care about moving back home and hence, they don't care what the old neighbourhood is doing. The old do. Hence, the young has absolutely zero rights telling how the old should vote.

                              Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
                              Every voting citizen of the UK "owns" the UK, both the young and the old.
                              And the majority ruled. The old cared enough about the neighbourhood to do something about it. The young don't care enough about their future and went pubbing instead of voting.

                              Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
                              I don't think the "old" figured on Scotland ripping itself away from England, Northern Ireland too perhaps, because that's much more likely now.
                              One thing about us old folks. Your house. Your rules.
                              Chimo

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                And the old owns property. The young don't. The young can move and are moving. They don't care about moving back home and hence, they don't care what the old neighbourhood is doing. The old do. Hence, the young has absolutely zero rights telling how the old should vote.
                                The young aren't just 18 year olds. There are plenty of 39 year olds that own property. And frankly, the Brexit movement was highly blue collar. London voted to stay. I'm guessing plenty of 41 year old London resident professionals with property are very angry at the old, working class apartment renters. It's not just young vs old. The educated, the sophisticated, the middle class professionals, they tended to vote to remain, and they are richer than the working class old, and likely own more property.

                                And the majority ruled. The old cared enough about the neighbourhood to do something about it. The young don't care enough about their future and went pubbing instead of voting.
                                Idiots. Often typical of young everywhere though.

                                From what I read, many (especially younger) who voted pro-Brexit didn't realize what they were doing, are scared now with the huge currency swings, the downgrading of UK's credit rating to negative, and would switch their vote. Too much "rule Britannia!" yelling and not enough research and understanding of consequences.

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