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Snowden: I was a trained spy

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  • #31
    Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
    With your permission, I may quote your post partially or in its entirety elsewhere.
    Sure, go ahead.

    gf, ditto.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by DonBelt View Post
      To be fair, he did also try to go to Cuba, but we prevented him by unfairly revoking his visa.
      Passport* All the while he was in Moscow.
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Red Team View Post
        JAD,

        Thank's for that, I must admit I've had much trouble trying to find civil discourse on the Snowden situation with each extreme accusing the man of being a terrorist sympathizer/martyr against intrusive government. I myself would also like to believe, despite his methods, that he has ultimately good intentions. However, knowing the significant amount of documents he has in his possession, plus the trips to China and Russia, how severe do you think we've been compromised both strategically and diplomatically?
        Red:

        I don't know what an "ultimately good intention" is. It sounds like some sort of after-the-fact rationalization to hide less than noble motives. But maybe you meant something else.

        As to how seriously Snowden's revelations (and Manning's before him) have damaged the US, it's much deeper and serious than most people imagine. It goes way beyond revealing NSA data collection capabilities, compromising intel operations, and complicating international relations. A professor of American History at Princeton U., Sean Wilentz did an analysis I highly recommend you read. Link below.

        Wilentz notes that while in Russia and still seeking asylum, Snowden issued the following statement of gratitude for the help he was getting to escape US justice:

        “Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world.”

        This doesn't exactly ring true with his claim that his first motivation was a desire to protect the privacy and freedoms of the country he professed to love.

        And was there really widespread abuse of American rights and freedoms by the NSA or was it simply the capability to abuse that Snowden turned on its head to make it seem as if the NSA was into wholesale abuse?

        "According to the leakers’ own evidence, however, this interpretation is simply not the case. The files leaked so far strongly indicate that the US intelligence system, although in need of major reform, is not recklessly spying on its citizens. The President’s Review Group on Intelligence and Communications Technologies found serious problems with the NSA’s data collection, and recommended, among other restrictions, outlawing the NSA’s practice of amassing and storing the phone records of virtually all Americans. Yet it also showed persuasively that the NSA has acted far more responsibly than the claims made by the leakers and publicised by the press."



        New Statesman | Would you feel differently about Snowden, Greenwald, and Assange if you knew what they really thought?
        To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

        Comment


        • #34
          JAD,

          What would his less then noble intentions be? To hurt his own country?
          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

          Comment


          • #35
            "According to the leakers’ own evidence, however, this interpretation is simply not the case. The files leaked so far strongly indicate that the US intelligence system, although in need of major reform, is not recklessly spying on its citizens.
            "In need of major reform" lol

            The President’s Review Group on Intelligence and Communications Technologies found serious problems with the NSA’s data collection, and recommended, among other restrictions, outlawing the NSA’s practice of amassing and storing the phone records of virtually all Americans.
            Prompted by the leak.

            Yet it also showed persuasively that the NSA has acted far more responsibly than the claims made by the leakers and publicised by the press."
            So it's not as bad as alleged... umm... yeah...

            Some of the documents stolen by Edward Snowden have revealed worrisome excesses on the part of the NSA. Any responsible whistle-blower, finding evidence of these excesses, might, if thwarted by her or his superiors, bring the evidence of those specific abuses to the attention of the press, causing a scandal, which would prod Congress and the NSA itself to correct or eliminate the offensive program.
            Err.... so admitting there was a huge problem which got brought to light by the leaks...

            But the Times was drawing on a Washington Post report that failed to say whether the “thousands” of violations amounted to a significant proportion of the total uses of the database, or only a relative handful, within the margin for human error. The Times also failed to emphasise that, according to the document, the vast majority those violations, as audited in the first quarter of 2012, were due to simple human or mechanical error and that there was no way of knowing whether the balance involved serious, as opposed to technical, violations of law. The findings, finally, came from an internal audit by the NSA – an indication that the NSA takes steps to police itself.
            Their internal audit says they had thousands of violations, but didn't say how major or minor - so it's all good? They have thousands of violations - but it may be an accident and its all good any way as they conducted an audit.

            The leakers and their supporters would never hand the state modern surveillance powers, even if they came wrapped in all sorts of rules and regulations that would constrain their abuse. They are right to worry, but wrong – even paranoid – to distrust democratic governments in this way.
            They distrust a government over a hidden mass surveillance against US citizens that no one got to vote on and nobody was elected by the people to implement.

            Maybe the author can write a rant about what the people who run these programs think of the public?
            Last edited by troung; 31 May 14,, 21:16.
            To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Doktor View Post
              JAD,

              What would his less then noble intentions be? To hurt his own country?
              I didn't say 'his'. Read again. I was referring to people in general who invent intentions after all the smoke has clearing.
              To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                I didn't say 'his'. Read again. I was referring to people in general who invent intentions after all the smoke has clearing.
                May I ask what are in your view their intentions for doing that?
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by troung View Post
                  "In need of major reform" lol
                  lol...missed the context, did ya?

                  Prompted by the leak.
                  So that justifies the leak?


                  So it's not as bad as alleged... umm... yeah...
                  So, what was alleged?


                  Err.... so admitting there was a huge problem which got brought to light by the leaks..
                  .

                  I take it that you believe the full scope of the treason was necessary and good?



                  Their internal audit says they had thousands of violations, but didn't say how major or minor - so it's all good? They have thousands of violations - but it may be an accident and its all good any way as they conducted an audit.
                  That would cover about 1 second of all private communication traffic on any given day, versus billions, as alleged.


                  They distrust a government over a hidden mass surveillance against US citizens that no one got to vote on and nobody was elected by the people to implement.

                  Maybe the author can write a rant about what the people who run these programs think of the public?
                  There was no hidden mass of surveillance and NSA's programs were not illegal. The Patriot Act and related laws that authorized them were voted on by elected representatives. The primary issue here is control and safeguards to insure programs don't stray beyond the law. That is a big problem in our new cyber age, and one we need to control. That we agree on. But it's a fair question to ask whether the only way to fix the problem was to steal 1.7 million documents and hand them over to the media. And further, the lack of selectivity in that theft was irresponsible and suspicious.

                  As for what those 'people' think of the public, they're more conscientious than you can possibly know.
                  To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                    May I ask what are in your view their intentions for doing that?
                    Their intention would be to create false intentions.
                    Last edited by JAD_333; 31 May 14,, 23:01.
                    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                      We're passing each other in the dark. To recap, I was commenting on the term 'ultimate intentions'. Ultimate suggests final, but how can you have a final intention different from your original intention? Well, you can create an intention to suit events as they unfold. This may or may not apply to Snowden. It's a Socratic musing, which has no more importance than a debate over how many angles can dance on the head of a pin. :)

                      Their intention would be to create false intentions.
                      OK, you got a broader brush and I was nitpicking. Roger.

                      Was mighty curious because in your discussion with Red I was under impression we talk US citizens here (both Snowden and Red's peers) and was really curious if I missed something.

                      In my view Snowden did more damage then good to US in short-medium term. Also, I think he didn't foreseen all of the consequences of his actions. Latest revelations by NSA show his concerns and that he tried to go trough proper channels before going public. Wonder how counter-intels feel about all this and if heads rolled for failing to detect him on time as a possible issue.
                      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        So that justifies the leak?
                        Abuses would have never come out without it.

                        But it's a fair question to ask whether the only way to fix the problem was to steal 1.7 million documents and hand them over to the media.
                        Made a nice splash.

                        That would cover about 1 second of all private communication traffic on any given day, versus billions, as alleged.
                        Wonderfully reassuring.

                        There was no hidden mass of surveillance and NSA's programs were not illegal. The Patriot Act and related laws that authorized them were voted on by elected representatives.
                        Which is why some hipster had to walk off with 1.7 million files to get this program out. Even more reassuring that this highschool dropout with an online degree was hired in the first place.

                        I take it that you believe the full scope of the treason was necessary and good?
                        LOL no one goes to jail for treason. Unauthorized dissemination of top secret documents. No problem with him going to jail for this, but he sure won't be seeing the business end of a firing squad.

                        As for what those 'people' think of the public, they're more conscientious than you can possibly know.
                        Clearly not. The article was a badly written hit piece, Snowden is a jackass and Assange a rapist no doubt but doesn't mean the NSA is some conscientious or even terribly competent outfit. The writer attempted to downplay the story with personal attacks and empty shit such as
                        Some of the documents stolen by Edward Snowden have revealed worrisome excesses on the part of the NSA. Any responsible whistle-blower, finding evidence of these excesses, might, if thwarted by her or his superiors, bring the evidence of those specific abuses to the attention of the press, causing a scandal, which would prod Congress and the NSA itself to correct or eliminate the offensive program.
                        They are right to worry, but wrong – even paranoid – to distrust democratic governments in this way.
                        Last edited by troung; 01 Jun 14,, 03:40.
                        To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by troung View Post
                          Abuses would have never come out without it.
                          Not so. Judges, US representatives, and private advocacy groups were criticizing NSA's management of legal surveillance programs at least 2 years before Snowden got on the plane for Hong Kong. Knowing Washington, it was only a matter of time before NSA's ops were tightened up.

                          http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us...onal.html?_r=0



                          Which is why some hipster had to walk off with 1.7 million files to get this program out. Even more reassuring that this highschool dropout with an online degree was hired in the first place.
                          The gist of what NSA was doing was already known. It's the program names that make people quake. On the contrary, it's reassuring that someone with genuine expertise can find a good job even if he doesn't have sheepskins hanging on a wall. What's different about this guy is his particular brand of righteousness.


                          LOL no one goes to jail for treason. Unauthorized dissemination of top secret documents. No problem with him going to jail for this, but he sure won't be seeing the business end of a firing squad.
                          Agree.


                          Clearly not. The article was a badly written hit piece, Snowden is a jackass and Assange a rapist no doubt but doesn't mean the NSA is some conscientious or even terribly competent outfit. The writer attempted to downplay the story with personal attacks and empty shit such as
                          Disagree. First it was well written and well documented. It did not call Snowden a jackass, but presented facts about his past views. Reader can draw their own conclusions. The reference to Assange's rape case was presented as an event which interrupted his operations. There was no attempt to pass on the validity of the charges. The author made no personal attacks at all. He analyzed known facts to support his thesis.
                          Last edited by JAD_333; 01 Jun 14,, 05:09.
                          To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Disagree. First it was well written and well documented. It did not call Snowden a jackass, but presented facts about his past views. Reader can draw their own conclusions. The reference to Assange's rape case was presented as an event which interrupted his operations. There was no attempt to pass on the validity of the charges. The author made no personal attacks at all. He analyzed known facts to support his thesis.
                            To attack the messengers. The content of the leaks stand or fall on their own - it doesn't matter for those purposes that Assange hates America and rapes unconscious women. The rest of that was a bunch of "well it wasn't as bad as they made it out to be but they were still spying on us and breaking their own rules while doing so."

                            The gist of what NSA was doing was already known. It's the program names that make people quake. On the contrary, it's reassuring that someone with genuine expertise can find a good job even if he doesn't have sheepskins hanging on a wall. What's different about this guy is his particular brand of righteousness.
                            Crack agency which is spying on the public hires a high school drop out and gives him access to all of this "damaging" documentation. Almost as bad that they were doing this in the first place.

                            A shame Bush-2 isn't in office, maybe more would have been done.
                            To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by troung View Post
                              To attack the messengers. The content of the leaks stand or fall on their own - it doesn't matter for those purposes that Assange hates America and rapes unconscious women. The rest of that was a bunch of "well it wasn't as bad as they made it out to be but they were still spying on us and breaking their own rules while doing so."



                              Crack agency which is spying on the public hires a high school drop out and gives him access to all of this "damaging" documentation. Almost as bad that they were doing this in the first place.

                              A shame Bush-2 isn't in office, maybe more would have been done.

                              So, if someone steals classified documents and damages their country in the process, we can't call him what he is lest it be considered an attack. What is someone who kills somebody on purpose? What is someone who robs a bank? We dare not say because it would be an attack on them.

                              Do people who have no college degree commit crimes because they have no degree? How do we explain when someone with a college degree commits a crime?
                              To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                So, if someone steals classified documents and damages their country in the process, we can't call him what he is lest it be considered an attack.
                                "The conduct the leaks exposed is very bad, but do you know these guys are anti-American."
                                To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                                Comment

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