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Snowden: I was a trained spy

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  • #16
    Originally posted by rogerwilko View Post
    Trolling?? Go back to sleep.The word TROLLING is a little overused these days don't you think ? It was an OPINION. Arrogant fool.
    Roger:

    No more personal attacks.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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    • #17
      And done? So obscure. Spare me your witticism.
      Originally posted by Dv2 View Post
      And...done.

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      • #18
        I'm a shakin' boss! Shakin' the bush! You're all so smug on this site. I come here occasionally to see if anything has changed but it seems very inbred. Probably about five of you all agreeing with each other. Very shabby.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by rogerwilko View Post
          I'm a shakin' boss! Shakin' the bush! You're all so smug on this site. I come here occasionally to see if anything has changed but it seems very inbred. Probably about five of you all agreeing with each other. Very shabby.
          Why invest 5 years into something and then simply throw it away?

          On topic, I absolutely get the Americans on this one. The man is a traitor.
          Last edited by sated buddha; 30 May 14,, 09:35.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by rogerwilko View Post
            I'm a shakin' boss! Shakin' the bush! You're all so smug on this site. I come here occasionally to see if anything has changed but it seems very inbred. Probably about five of you all agreeing with each other. Very shabby.
            Take a week off. Jettison the attitude or don't even bother coming back.
            sigpic

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            • #21
              I'm late...

              Wondered which 5 he had in mind.
              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                I'm late...

                Wondered which 5 he had in mind.
                when i left the room it was all polite and civil - came back to find he'd snapped.
                Linkeden:
                http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                http://cofda.wordpress.com/

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                  when i left the room it was all polite and civil - came back to find he'd snapped.
                  It's better that way, then to be present
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                  • #24
                    At the risk of deviating from the inbreeding... :)

                    So, from the context of the many Mil. and Def. Profs in the WAB, what is the current view on Snowden's actions and/or true intentions? Among many of my peers he is seen as a paragon against increasingly invasive NSA + other agency surveillance methods.
                    "Draft beer, not people."

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Red Team View Post
                      At the risk of deviating from the inbreeding... :)

                      So, from the context of the many Mil. and Def. Profs in the WAB, what is the current view on Snowden's actions and/or true intentions?

                      Among many of my peers he is seen as a paragon against increasingly invasive NSA + other agency surveillance methods.

                      Fair question. Snowden's revelations triggered an uproar over the issue of privacy. Specifically, the question was, to what extent can the US government pry into the private lives of citizens without probable cause. He alleges that the government was amassing meta data on citizens taken from their computer and phone communications and that the actual content could be stored and later read or listened to. What he really revealed was that the NSA has the means to amass this data, not that it had. Although delving into this data would require permission from a FISA court and probable cause would have to shown to get permission, he charges that the court is inadequate to the task. He may be right.

                      Being right, however, is not the issue. I understand getting lost in the issue of privacy, but overlooking Snowden's theft of documents that reveal much more than NSA's snooping capability seems to escape the notice of your peers. Many of the documents reveal perfectly legal and perfectly normal, but highly secret USG communications and procedures that have no bearing on our privacy. These revelations are giving US enemies and terrorist groups insight into how the US combats terrorism and so forth. Then there are documents that expose how the US spies on foreign governments and who the targets were. Spying is something all gov'ts do and all gov'ts expect, but when details come out, there is always an uproar among the targets, and relations are damaged between the one doing the spying and the one being spied upon. Witness the Merkle flap.

                      In cases like this, the perpetrator becomes the hero to many people, such as your peers. I must say some of my older friends also see him as a hero. Privacy is an sensitive issue and our privacy should be protected from unreasonable searches and seizures (See 4th amendment). Tunnel vision, however, blinds some people to what else happened here, namely the damage done to US image abroad and dark cloud put over all USG foreign interactions. It is as if, Snowden was a cop and he shot through the hostage to kill the hostage taker. There are many reported cases of bilateral discussions faltering or limping along because the Snowden revelations permeate the atmosphere. On any day, there are thousands of contacts between US diplomats and officials and their foreign counterparts at all levels. So, you can imagine the damage.

                      How about overkill? Snowden stole an estimated 1.7 million documents. Why so many? He claims the sole purpose was to expose NSA data collection programs aimed at private US citizens. Could he have made his case with 1 document, a 100, or a 1,000? It seems to me 1.7 million was well beyond what he needed. And instead of culling out unrelated documents, he handed over all 1.7 million (so he says) to several journalists who have not only published documents related to NSA programs, like Prism, but revealed juicy details about normal spying activity. (You can't trust a journalist not to publish a good story when they see one, the consequences be damned.) To their credit, they have allowed to USG to preview their articles in case any information might threaten the security of agents and sources. This is supposed to make everything okay, but it doesn't.

                      Perhaps Snowden figured the collateral damage to the US was well worth protecting people's privacy. It's true that some good things come at a high price and over time the cost is worth it. But in this case, he figured wrongly. Go back and look at how laws came about to protect private mail and telephone conversations. They came because of campaigns to end unfettered police snooping. Now police need a warrant to open your mail or tap your phone. Would NSA's programs have eventually evoked the same reaction? Probably. Could Snowden have secretly slipped some pertinent documents to a few journalists to get the ball rolling? Did he need to make himself into a folk hero and steal 1.7 million docs? What do you think?

                      Anyway, now you see why Snowden will never be a hero to many of us. We're accused of 'inbreeding' :) and being a chorus without independent thinking. I see that as just a poor comeback from people who disagree with us. Maybe you should see it our way. We see not only what he has done, but how he has deliberately fashioned himself unnecessarily into a celebrity, how he defines patriotism to include a treason, how he fancies himself a protector of the Constitution, and how he seeks to elevate
                      his persona into a respectable spy. He may indeed believe his intentions were good. I have no problem believing that, but intentions are only as good as the input that goes into shaping them. It's what he missed when shaping his intentions that led him astray. The US has faced and overcome many problems in its history without any help from traitors. Too bad Snowden didn't think of that. In short, Snowden is no hero.
                      Last edited by JAD_333; 30 May 14,, 18:06.
                      To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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                      • #26
                        The amount of data taken, and his decision to go to China AND Russia, as if they are some bastions of freedom, is highly suspect to me. His inability to document his supposed "numerous attempts" of raising concerns through the appropriate channels is an indicator that he was more concerned with stealing secrets for whatever purposes, than actually trying to effect a positive change.

                        Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how ignorant and misguided.
                        "We are all special cases." - Camus

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                        • #27
                          JAD,

                          Thank's for that, I must admit I've had much trouble trying to find civil discourse on the Snowden situation with each extreme accusing the man of being a terrorist sympathizer/martyr against intrusive government. I myself would also like to believe, despite his methods, that he has ultimately good intentions. However, knowing the significant amount of documents he has in his possession, plus the trips to China and Russia, how severe do you think we've been compromised both strategically and diplomatically?
                          "Draft beer, not people."

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                            The US has faced and overcome many problems in its history without any help from traitors. Too bad Snowden didn't think of that. In short, Snowden is no hero.
                            With your permission, I may quote your post partially or in its entirety elsewhere.

                            Originally posted by Dv2 View Post
                            The amount of data taken, and his decision to go to China AND Russia, as if they are some bastions of freedom, is highly suspect to me. His inability to document his supposed "numerous attempts" of raising concerns through the appropriate channels is an indicator that he was more concerned with stealing secrets for whatever purposes, than actually trying to effect a positive change.
                            That was exactly what I was thinking too. JAD hammered on that point quite nicely: Snowden needed 1.7 million documents to substantiate his case against the NSA? That just stinks to the high heavens of bullshit on the part of Mr. Snowden and his supporters.

                            And as you pointed out, his destinations were China and Russia?? How ironic that apparently those are the only countries that would consider sheltering him from the "horrors" of the United States.
                            Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                              With your permission, I may quote your post partially or in its entirety elsewhere.
                              JAD, ditto re the above
                              Linkeden:
                              http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                              http://cofda.wordpress.com/

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

                                And as you pointed out, his destinations were China and Russia?? How ironic that apparently those are the only countries that would consider sheltering him from the "horrors" of the United States.
                                To be fair, he did also try to go to Cuba, but we prevented him by unfairly revoking his visa.

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