Bloody outcome in Kiev, Feb.19, 2014

[Doktor]

Guys, a question.

What's Russian nuclear threshold? At least official one?

We know another country who has nukes considers economical blockade a cross of nuclear threshold.

[kato]

And here we go, 120 Russians seized a village outside Crimea. No shooting is reported.

If it's Strilkove then that was yesterday. And they returned back across the border 200m south.

[Goatboy]

Coup? With this rating after decade of rule?

BTW interesting how you are disgusted from use of violence in one sentence and advocate it in another.

I never said "Russian Revolution" level violence. A level of indigenous unrest, similar to what happened in Ukraine would be peachy as far as I'm concerned, if the end result was Putin's overthrow. I take it you aren't too bothered by Putin's takeover of non-Crimean Ukrainian territory yesterday? At what point will further Russian invasions of neighboring nation's will you say "enough, please Russian people, remove your leader from power, he's too dangerous"?

[snapper]

Not the sushi option?

[Doktor]

If it's Strilkove then that was yesterday. And they returned back across the border 200m south.

That was two days ago. Or maybe it was another village.

Yep,

I am not with the program :(

[Doktor]

I never said "Russian Revolution" level violence. A level of indigenous unrest, similar to what happened in Ukraine would be peachy as far as I'm concerned, if the end result was Putin's overthrow. I take it you aren't too bothered by Putin's takeover of non-Crimean Ukrainian territory yesterday? At what point will further Russian invasions of neighboring nation's will you say "enough, please Russian people, remove your leader from power, he's too dangerous"?

If anyone as a country holds Ukraine more dear in the most sincere way and wishes them all the best, I am bold to say it is us. They are close to us in more ways then few and on top they helped us when we needed it most. I am feeling ashamed that not only we can't return the favor (due to our size), but also due to incapable politicos we got. The opposition is here is even more spineless.

What Russians do with Putin is all up to them. They elected him, they like him, they will bear the consequences, good or bad. Those who disagree will try to flee. Some will mange to do it, many wont. It's not up to me or you to make that decision or even push it. It is up to the Russians. I don't have the stomach to tell them who is the right choice for them, as much I don't have the stomach nor the right to tell you if Obama is good for the USA. I can tell you if your President's policy is good in my view, but here this ends. I wont call you to wake up and remove the President who plays with your laws and/or Constitution whenever he needs it or feels like. You are all grown up men and women and can choose on your own.

[Goatboy]

If anyone as a country holds Ukraine more dear in the most sincere way and wishes them all the best, I am bold to say it is us. They are close to us in more ways then few and on top they helped us when we needed it most. I am feeling ashamed that not only we can't return the favor (due to our size), but also due to incapable politicos we got. The opposition is here is even more spineless.

What Russians do with Putin is all up to them. They elected him, they like him, they will bear the consequences, good or bad. Those who disagree will try to flee. Some will mange to do it, many wont. It's not up to me or you to make that decision or even push it. It is up to the Russians. I don't have the stomach to tell them who is the right choice for them, as much I don't have the stomach nor the right to tell you if Obama is good for the USA. I can tell you if your President's policy is good in my view, but here this ends. I wont call you to wake up and remove the President who plays with your laws and/or Constitution whenever he needs it or feels like. You are all grown up men and women and can choose on your own.

I understand and respect this opinion and consider it reasonable.

I dare say however, that it's within your rights -- as a nearby neighbor of Putin, or as a concerned citizen of the planet wishing to prevent chaos reigning in Europe -- to claim Putin's removal from power would be a good thing, or at least one of a few options to reign in Russian expansionism. Russian state sovereignty shouldn't deny non-Russians the ability to voice opinion on how to best return this debacle to a stable situation. And if my president invaded New Brunswick, Canada and claimed it for the United States, I wouldn't blame you for "wishing" for his removal from power, as peacefully as possible.

Aggressive, unilateral border expansion tends to end my usual reluctance to make suggestions like a leader's removal from power. If one's leader crosses an internationally recognized border with the intent on aggressively expanding national boundaries, then that leader's position in power by definition, ceases to remain a domestic issue for them, or for us.

[Salter]

Do you think this will be the start of world war 3? Will US / NATO get drawn into a conflict against Russia?

[Versus]

I never said "Russian Revolution" level violence. A level of indigenous unrest, similar to what happened in Ukraine would be peachy as far as I'm concerned, if the end result was Putin's overthrow. I take it you aren't too bothered by Putin's takeover of non-Crimean Ukrainian territory yesterday? At what point will further Russian invasions of neighboring nation's will you say "enough, please Russian people, remove your leader from power, he's too dangerous"?

Things are not that simple. Problem with the West is that it only sees its side of the story or sees things that benefit to its interests, not the global picture. For US and Europe, Kosovo conflict is seen as victory of good over evil, as action that brought security and stability to the region while in reality it jeopardizes our existence, existence of Serbia as a country and the Serbs as a nation at the core level. Not only us but the Macedonians and Montenegriians as well and to some extent Greeks too. What is good for you doesn't necessarily mean that it is good in general and that is good for everyone. Same goes for Crimea.

Besides, when all things consider, I don't think that much has changed from the 19th century onwards.

[Doktor]

I understand and respect this opinion and consider it reasonable.

I dare say however, that it's within your rights -- as a nearby neighbor of Putin, or as a concerned citizen of the planet wishing to prevent chaos reigning in Europe -- to claim Putin's removal from power would be a good thing, or at least one of a few options to reign in Russian expansionism. Russian state sovereignty shouldn't deny non-Russians the ability to voice opinion on how to best return this debacle to a stable situation. And if my president invaded New Brunswick, Canada and claimed it for the United States, I wouldn't blame you for "wishing" for his removal from power, as peacefully as possible.

Aggressive, unilateral border expansion tends to end my usual reluctance to make suggestions like a leader's removal from power. If one's leader crosses an internationally recognized border with the intent on aggressively expanding national boundaries, then that leader's position in power by definition, ceases to remain a domestic issue for them, or for us.

It's one thing to go and help Canada repel the aggression, it is totally another to tell the Americans to start a revolution to change the POTUS who they elected and support.

How about toppling a 'dictator' to install a 'friendly' regime?

Frankly, in my book it's interfering in other's country domestic issues.

[MrSecond]

At what point will further Russian invasions of neighboring nation's will you say "enough, please Russian people, remove your leader from power, he's too dangerous"?

Such ideas arise from complete misunderstanding about what is going on in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and all post-Soviet area. I've already told here about sociological polls in Ukraine and Moldova, and some other counties. People were asked about their political leadership, about who they would vote for as a president. If they were suggested Putin as a hypothetical candidate, he always won. People in Ukraine want Putin or somebody like Putin. But instead they have Yuschenko or Yanukovich and they are not happy. Yuschenko, who won in revolutionary elections of 2004 and who was the president of hopes, finished his presidency with shameful rating about 1%. Yuschenko finished his presidency with corruption scandals and mutual hate with his partner in Orange revolution Yulia Timoshenko, who he used to call a "woman-thief". Yanukovich was next Ukrainian president and he finished as fugitive, he had to escape just to stay alive. All Ukrainian presidents were political bankrupts. Now Ukraine is a bankrupt, a collapsing nation. Another great democratic leader of post-Soviet area and US proxy - Mikhail Saakashvili - lost all his political influence and moral authority in Georgia. Currently he lives in USA. He can't come back home because if he came to Georgia he would be arrested right in airport.

So, who is dangerous and for whom?

While we, Russians, were watching Olympics and were glad of our sports victories, Ukrainians watched the smoke from burning tyres over Kiev. This is democratic revolution. Breathe a smoke and don't complain.
Why we prefer Putin, one may wonder???

From my point of view,

Saakashvili was dangerous for Georgia. Because he started the hopeless war against Russia and lost it.

Yanukovich was dangerous for Ukraine, because he was too stupid and he couldn't realize the presidency means not to fill your pockets limitlessly but to care about your country.

The current Kiev government is dangerous for Ukraine, because they split their country and enhance the hate level in the country between different ethnic groups.

Is Putin dangerous? Absolutely. For his enemies. And for enemies of Russia.

[Goatboy]

It's one thing to go and help Canada repel the aggression, it is totally another to tell the Americans to start a revolution to change the POTUS who they elected and support.

How about toppling a 'dictator' to install a 'friendly' regime?

Frankly, in my book it's interfering in other's country domestic issues.

You're telling me that me, a civilian in Los Angeles with no ties to any state entity merely "suggesting" that Russians remove Putin from power is interfering in Russia's domestic issues? We're going to have to disagree. And by the way, I never suggested that I (or America, or anyone) play any part in toppling a dictator to install a friendly regime.

[Doktor]

You're telling me that me, a civilian in Los Angeles with no ties to any state entity merely "suggesting" that Russians remove Putin from power is interfering in Russia's domestic issues? We're going to have to disagree. And by the way, I never suggested that I (or America, or anyone) play any part in toppling a dictator to install a friendly regime.

It was never my intention to make this 'me vs you' conversation. If you felt that way I apologize.

We engage in a discussion where we voice our opinions and those opinions are usually taken as what we'd do if we had the power to do so.

You are right about another thing, we can agree to disagree on what we can or may suggest to people in other countries to do with their rulers.

P.S. Your voicing a view that Russians should remove Putin, for the reasons you stated or whatever other reasons you might have, is exactly a suggestion to them to remove their (in your view) dictator.

[Goatboy]

Such ideas arise from complete misunderstanding about what is going on in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and all post-Soviet area. I've already told here about sociological polls in Ukraine and Moldova, and some other counties. People were asked about their political leadership, about who they would vote for as a president. If they were suggested Putin as a hypothetical candidate, he always won. People in Ukraine want Putin or somebody like Putin. But instead they have Yuschenko or Yanukovich and they are not happy. Yuschenko, who won in revolutionary elections of 2004 and who was the president of hopes, finished his presidency with shameful rating about 1%. Yuschenko finished his presidency with corruption scandals and mutual hate with his partner in Orange revolution Yulia Timoshenko, who he used to call a "woman-thief". Yanukovich was next Ukrainian president and he finished as fugitive, he had to escape just to stay alive. All Ukrainian presidents were political bankrupts. Now Ukraine is a bankrupt, a collapsing nation. Another great democratic leader of post-Soviet area and US proxy - Mikhail Saakashvili - lost all his political influence and moral authority in Georgia. Currently he lives in USA. He can't come back home because if he came to Georgia he would be arrested right in airport.

So, who is dangerous and for whom?

While we, Russians, were watching Olympics and were glad of our sports victories, Ukrainians watched the smoke from burning tyres over Kiev. This is democratic revolution. Breathe a smoke and don't complain.
Why we prefer Putin, one may wonder???

From my point of view,

Saakashvili was dangerous for Georgia. Because he started the hopeless war against Russia and lost it.

Yanukovich was dangerous for Ukraine, because he was too stupid and he couldn't realize the presidency means not to fill your pockets limitlessly but to care about your country.

The current Kiev government is dangerous for Ukraine, because they split their country and enhance the hate level in the country between different ethnic groups.

Is Putin dangerous? Absolutely. For his enemies. And for enemies of Russia.

You can swallow your own Koolaid if you enjoy the taste. And cut out the rest that isn't relevant shall we?

Right now I don't care about Yuschenko or Yanukovich, nor Timoshenko, nor all their corruption. I don't care about Saakashvili, nor the Sochi Olympics. I don't care. Putin is invading another nation's internationally recognized sovereign territory, and it looks like he's about to take over and annex Eastern Ukraine to boot. He certainly has no respect for the sovereignty of non-Crimean Ukrainian territory with his little invasion yesterday north of Crimea (and I won't even bring up the countless Russian agents, provocateurs, and perhaps Spetsnaz fanning out across Ukraine now).

Limit the discussion with me to these annexations, these unprecedented violations of international law, and I'll respond thoughtfully in kind....

[Goatboy]

It was never my intention to make this 'me vs you' conversation. If you felt that way I apologize.

We engage in a discussion where we voice our opinions and those opinions are usually taken as what we'd do if we had the power to do so.

You are right about another thing, we can agree to disagree on what we can or may suggest to people in other countries to do with their rulers.

No problem. I apologize for bring shrill. I certainly wouldn't suggest that Obama encourage Russians rise up and overthrow Putin (or any American governmental body), that's for sure. That's a violation, unless there's an active war between us.

Things are not that simple. Problem with the West is that it only sees its side of the story or sees things that benefit to its interests, not the global picture. For US and Europe, Kosovo conflict is seen as victory of good over evil, as action that brought security and stability to the region .....

Things are never that simple, but keeping every issue as complex as the ingredients in gumbo often doesn't help. And, despite some controversial, perhaps regrettable tenets of the Kosovo situation, I draw a massive distinction between that and Crimea. Lumping them together as "the same thing", cheapens the violation Russia has just committed.