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Bloody outcome in Kiev, Feb.19, 2014

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  • Originally posted by MrSecond View Post
    Dividing country is very wrong. But what can we do if Ukraine divides itself?
    USSR divided and what? Who divided USSR, Doc? Maybe you'd bet on who did that? ;)
    Russia is under no legal obligations to annex the Crimea.

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    • Originally posted by MrSecond View Post
      Dividing country is very wrong. But what can we do if Ukraine divides itself?
      In 4 months? You look intelligent enough to not buy that. We never saw counter revolution.

      USSR divided and what? Who divided USSR, Doc? Maybe you'd bet on who did that? ;)
      Garbuzov? :red:

      Secessionist movements in South East is a natural result of nationalistic coup in Kiev. It's very simple - If you arrange a revolution you must expect consequences. If you brake the law, you cannot count on it.
      Nationalistic coup? Are you saying that people who love Ukraine ousted those who don't?
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        Russia is under no legal obligations to annex the Crimea.
        The Duma thinks otherwise.
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

        Comment


        • They may want to annex the Crimea but nobody is forcing 2 million welfare cases onto Moscow.

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          • What about the US or the UK? They're both signatories on the Budapest agreement. Do you think they'd back the Ukraine gov militarily against Russia?
            How do you see this playing out?

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            • Originally posted by MrSecond View Post
              Dividing country is very wrong. But what can we do if Ukraine divides itself?
              USSR divided and what? Who divided USSR, Doc? Maybe you'd bet on who did that? ;)

              Secessionist movements in South East is a natural result of nationalistic coup in Kiev. It's very simple - If you arrange a revolution you must expect consequences. If you brake the law, you cannot count on it.
              Question. Say the Ukraine does break up. How does that really affect Russia?
              Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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              • Originally posted by bonehead View Post
                Question. Say the Ukraine does break up. How does that really affect Russia?
                They get smaller buffer zone.
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Salter View Post
                  What about the US or the UK? They're both signatories on the Budapest agreement.
                  That is not a defence pact.

                  Originally posted by Salter View Post
                  Do you think they'd back the Ukraine gov militarily against Russia?
                  With what? We're in recovery mode. Men and machines are exhausted,

                  Originally posted by Salter View Post
                  How do you see this playing out?
                  The Russian flag over the Crimea.

                  Comment


                  • I am more curious what happens with whatever is left of Ukrane after South-East leaves (if it does).

                    We could get someone reasonable like Lukashenko #2 to run it and make it all right.

                    Theoretically Hallychina (Western Ukraine) could separate and become an ultra-nationalist republic of Swoboda or something.
                    That is the dark scenario.
                    Originally from Sochi, Russia.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MrSecond View Post
                      Excuse me, but it seemed to me that was you who said: "At what point will further Russian invasions of neighboring nation's will you say "enough, please Russian people, remove your leader from power, he's too dangerous"?"

                      As for me, I have never asked someone here when are you going to get rid of your miserable Obama or something like this.
                      As a civilian, and essentially some guy sitting on his computer in Los Angeles, I'm comfortable with suggesting that Russians remove Putin from power. I'm not taking out NY Times full page ads, nor speaking to Russian leaders. And you have every right to suggest that Americans remove Obama from power if he's invading and aggressively annexing neighboring nation's sovereign territories. I'd welcome, in fact plead for for it, no wait, in fact I'd insist that your duty as a citizen of the same planet I live on that you recommend Americans remove Obama from power before the aggressive expansionism, before Stalin's rejuvenated ghost gets any more signs of life.

                      Originally posted by MrSecond View Post
                      This is exactly what I'm talking about. The complete misunderstanding.
                      You don't care about Yuschenko or Yanukovich, nor Timoshenko, nor all their corruption? It's where you're wrong. Because this is the real problem for Ukraine. This is the real reason why Ukraine is a failed state now.
                      Fine. Ukraine's corrupt. So flipping what? What on earth does that have to do with Russia invading? Ukraine a failed state? (another Russian lie) hardly. Show me the massacres, sho me the Russian speakers kicked from their homes by police, or Ukrainian extremists. Show me anything other than typical, often regrettable ethnic squabbles many nations face. Ukraine was never Somalia. Russia circa 1999 wasn't a failed state either, but certainly as bad off, or worse, than Ukraine is now. As for corrupt states, so is Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Belarus, even still Romania and Bulgaria. So Russia (a massively corrupt national entity currently), is going to come in and "stop the corruption and save the day" without the permission of these governments, and then annex portions of their territory?

                      Let me give you a brief analogy to what Russia is doing. My garage is on fire. Because a portion of my house is burning you send soldiers in to put out the fire -- and then you occupy and claim that the garage now belongs to you. This isn't the way firemen are supposed to behave.

                      Putin's promises hold zero water anymore. Even you might admit that he's a liar.
                      Here's a direct quote from him last week "Russia has no intention to annex Crimea" he made publicly, officially, and that was less than 2 weeks ago. Those Russian soldiers in Crimea? Putin says he has no control, nor did he order them to occupy Crimea.

                      Stop using Ukrainian corruption as an excuse to annex territory. Stop thinking Russia has any business slamming any of its neighbors for being corrupt (hypocritical). And perhaps understand that those that deposed Yanikovch wanted to end corruption, they deposed him precisely because OF corruption, of Russian meddling. They wanted a better life for them, like rest of the former Warsaw Pact nations currently have, thanks to the EU, or do you think Poland would be better off under Russian dominion?
                      Last edited by Goatboy; 16 Mar 14,, 23:20.

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                      • Gents,

                        We reached the Godwin. First Clinton Femme, now a WABber. :whome:
                        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MrSecond View Post

                          Is Putin dangerous? Absolutely. For Russia.
                          Fixed.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
                            Stop using Ukrainian corruption as an excuse to annex territory. Stop thinking Russia has any business slamming any of its neighbors for being corrupt (hypocritical). And perhaps understand that those that deposed Yanikovch wanted to end corruption, they deposed him precisely because OF corruption, of Russian meddling. They wanted a better life for them, like rest of the former Warsaw Pact nations currently have, thanks to the EU, or do you think Poland would be better off under Russian dominion?
                            Yet the very first things they did was to release Timoschenko. Speaking of fighting corruption, even more a Russian one.

                            Next they decided to dispose Soviet monuments, threat Russian speakers and send Right wingers on the East. To be honest they also decided to take commercial flights as a cheaper option. Maybe because current fleet can't be at Washington, Berlin, London, Paris... at the same time.

                            Finally, where is Klitschko?
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                              What Russians do with Putin is all up to them.
                              It's not just them that have to put him now. He has forced his troops into other peoples legal land. Feed him the sushi is fair game for those who has made enemies of.

                              Originally posted by MrSecond View Post
                              Is Putin dangerous? Absolutely. For his enemies. And for enemies of Russia.
                              You miss the point; war is nobody's interests. Any leader who causes sanctions or war for his or her country by invading a foreign nation is the enemy of their own country. Waving flags and feeling proud of an increased border is; creating an enemy - is the best way to rob you of your rights. YOU will gain nothing, in fact you are more likely to lose - both financially and in liberty.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                                It's not just them that have to put him now. He has forced his troops into other peoples legal land. Feed him the sushi is fair game for those who has made enemies of.
                                What can you do? People like him even when they disagree with his politics. He can't be ousted from outside, it's all up to Russians to deal with his regime.

                                You miss the point; war is nobody's interests. Any leader who causes sanctions or war for his or her country by invading a foreign nation is the enemy of their own country. Waving flags and feeling proud of an increased border is; creating an enemy - is the best way to rob you of your rights. YOU will gain nothing, in fact you are more likely to lose - both financially and in liberty.
                                Hold your breath, many in the west were not so loud when respective governments forced their troops in other legal lands.
                                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                                Comment

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