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Bloody outcome in Kiev, Feb.19, 2014

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  • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
    Right now I don't care about Yuschenko or Yanukovich, nor Timoshenko, nor all their corruption. I don't care about Saakashvili, nor the Sochi Olympics. I don't care. Putin is invading another nation's internationally recognized sovereign territory, and it looks like he's about to take over and annex Eastern Ukraine to boot. He certainly has no respect for the sovereignty of non-Crimean Ukrainian territory with his little invasion yesterday north of Crimea (and I won't even bring up the countless Russian agents, provocateurs, and perhaps Spetsnaz fanning out across Ukraine now).
    He feels like he can do that since (in his view) there is a precedent in Kosovo (and Georgia). Two wrongs doesn't make it right, but tell that to Mr. Putin. Even his compatriots within Russia feel this is wrong, but yet they support him.

    Limit the discussion with me to these annexations, these unprecedented violations of international law, and I'll respond thoughtfully in kind....
    International law is a joke. Big 5 don't recognize the rulings from the court that they formed.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
      He feels like he can do that since (in his view) there is a precedent in Kosovo (and Georgia). Two wrongs doesn't make it right, but tell that to Mr. Putin. Even his compatriots within Russia feel this is wrong, but yet they support him.
      Doc, it's not about Kosovo, it's about Ukraine.
      Kosovo is just a diplomatic matter for Russia, Ukraine is very different. There are no conditions, under which Russia could stay aside and do not care about what is going on in this country. There are simply no such conditions. Too many ties between us.

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      • Its geopolitics and at that level things work very very differently. Kosovo and Crimea are not the same thing, or Georgia for that matter, but they do belong to the same geopolitics.

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        • So it's all reading like a Machiavellian plot. Incredibly knowledgeable and sophisticated only problem is, there's only about twenty places within the flight range of that aircraft that it could have safely landed. It's not at any of those places, so what's the point of being clever and sophisticated when you just crash and burn anyway?
          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

          Leibniz

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          • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            You can swallow your own Koolaid if you enjoy the taste. And cut out the rest that isn't relevant shall we?
            Excuse me, but it seemed to me that was you who said: "At what point will further Russian invasions of neighboring nation's will you say "enough, please Russian people, remove your leader from power, he's too dangerous"?"

            As for me, I have never asked someone here when are you going to get rid of your miserable Obama or something like this.

            Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            Right now I don't care about Yuschenko or Yanukovich, nor Timoshenko, nor all their corruption. I don't care about Saakashvili, nor the Sochi Olympics. I don't care.
            This is exactly what I'm talking about. The complete misunderstanding.
            You don't care about Yuschenko or Yanukovich, nor Timoshenko, nor all their corruption? It's where you're wrong. Because this is the real problem for Ukraine. This is the real reason why Ukraine is a failed state now.

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            • By the way, what I see on TV from Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk - in the first beginning of anti-junta protests in these cities people were bringing a lot of Ukrainian flags, now the protesters don't have them at all.

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              • Pari, can I PM you?

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                • Latest news fro Crimea

                  Voters turnout in Sevastopol (official report) - 89.5%.
                  At 17-00 (three hours before poll stations' closing) the voter turnout in Crimea was 70%.
                  Exit polls report on Crimea - 93.5% of votes - "yes" to reunification with Russia.
                  The first deputy of Prime-minister of Crimea Rustam Temirgaliev said about 40% of Tatars took part in voting.

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                  • Originally posted by MrSecond View Post
                    Doc, it's not about Kosovo, it's about Ukraine.
                    Kosovo is just a diplomatic matter for Russia, Ukraine is very different. There are no conditions, under which Russia could stay aside and do not care about what is going on in this country. There are simply no such conditions. Too many ties between us.
                    I never said it is about Kosovo. I said Kosovo was a precedence for such a behavior. I can understand Russian reasoning, but dividing a country is wrong. 4 months ago there were no secessionist movements there and if I have to place a bet who turned it this way, I'd say Russia. What 'clicked' in Putin's head is yet to come for us ordinary mortals. This generation might never find out, however.

                    BTW, you guys do realize that however this ends and whenever it ends, Russia loses? They didn't want Nato closer to their borders, but they will end up there. Unless, of course there is an expeditionary force to the Polish Border.
                    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                    Comment


                    • How do you think the west will reply if Russia invades Eastern Ukraine?

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                      • We're not going to war over the Ukraines.

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                        • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                          I never said it is about Kosovo. I said Kosovo was a precedence for such a behavior. I can understand Russian reasoning, but dividing a country is wrong. 4 months ago there were no secessionist movements there and if I have to place a bet who turned it this way, I'd say Russia. What 'clicked' in Putin's head is yet to come for us ordinary mortals. This generation might never find out, however.

                          BTW, you guys do realize that however this ends and whenever it ends, Russia loses? They didn't want Nato closer to their borders, but they will end up there. Unless, of course there is an expeditionary force to the Polish Border.
                          I don't see how that makes situation any different. The point of the whole game is not to have a direct contact with the competitor, only trough buffer zone aka satellites and proxies. Direct contact leads to disasters, they learned that from WW1.

                          The dispositions were there always, they just waited for the right moment to present themselves.
                          Last edited by Versus; 16 Mar 14,, 20:38.

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                          • NATO in West Ukraine?Not likely.

                            Even if it were a peacekeeping operation,who's going to do it?The Americans,no way.The Germans,Poles or Romanians,not likely for historical reasons.
                            I'd really not want to be in the hypothetical place of Belgian platoon leader facing a bunch of ''self defense militia'' with a ''neutral'' Russian armor in the background.
                            Those who know don't speak
                            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                            • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                              I never said it is about Kosovo. I said Kosovo was a precedence for such a behavior. I can understand Russian reasoning, but dividing a country is wrong. 4 months ago there were no secessionist movements there and if I have to place a bet who turned it this way, I'd say Russia. What 'clicked' in Putin's head is yet to come for us ordinary mortals. This generation might never find out, however.

                              BTW, you guys do realize that however this ends and whenever it ends, Russia loses? They didn't want Nato closer to their borders, but they will end up there. Unless, of course there is an expeditionary force to the Polish Border.
                              Dividing country is very wrong. But what can we do if Ukraine divides itself?
                              USSR divided and what? Who divided USSR, Doc? Maybe you'd bet on who did that? ;)

                              Secessionist movements in South East is a natural result of nationalistic coup in Kiev. It's very simple - If you arrange a revolution you must expect consequences. If you brake the law, you cannot count on it.

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                              • Originally posted by Salter View Post
                                How do you think the west will reply if Russia invades Eastern Ukraine?
                                How do you think the west will reply once all of South-East demands a referendum to either have autonomy or join Russia?
                                Because it is getting to that point with the morons in charge. "Yats" screaming that everyone whom says something against the gov't is a "separatist" while whomever was on maidan was a "freedom protestor" rrright.

                                After South-East leaves or gets autonomy they will have another "maidan" or revolution only that one will have very angry men not youth whom will go after the gov't for financial collapse. In the end there will be someone like a soft-Lukashenko whom takes power in what will be left of Ukraine.
                                Originally from Sochi, Russia.

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