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  • #46
    Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
    Sorrow candles in Kyiv street in memory of those killed by the Berkut
    How do you know they were killed by Berkut?

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    • #47
      Originally posted by snapper View Post
      Klitschko: We will extend the territory of Maidan, we will fight. I will stay with you until the end.
      Wonder if those who support this kind of power struggle will do the same in their own countries.
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

      Comment


      • #48
        President of the Russian Federation VV Putin
        President of the United States of America Barack Obama


        I just read an appeal to Mr. Ponomarev - Executive Director of the Movement "For Human Rights", in which he called for both of you to take the initiative in the negotiations concerning Ukraine to seek immediate cessation of violence and to prevent massive bloodshed. This call I fully support. I am sure that it is within your power to achieve this goal. The warring parties must sit at the negotiating table. It is impossible not to see that the course of events in Kyiv threatens not only Ukraine itself and its neighbors, but also Europe and the world.

        I, like many in Russia very close to the heart, accept everything that is happening in Ukraine. I just can not imagine that there has come a division of this nation, the division of society. This concern is understandable. Russia and Ukraine for centuries were very close. It is not just the historical ties. This is a close kinship between people. The examples are not far to seek. In my family, my mother was Ukrainian, father - Russian. My late wife Raisa was Ukrainian. And there are countless thousands of such examples. You can directly talk about the blood ties of our people, of our peoples and our countries. We can not allow Ukrainians to fight with fellow Ukrainians. This is a terrible absurdity. But the situation apparently took such a nature that without help, without the assistance of authoritative representatives of our two countries, this may lead to disaster.

        Vladimir Vladimirovich, Mr. Obama, I ask you to find a way to take the plunge to help Ukraine to return to the path of peaceful development. I really rely on you.

        Sincerely,
        Mikhail Gorbachev
        22 January 2014
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Doktor View Post
          Wonder if those who support this kind of power struggle will do the same in their own countries.
          You know they won't.The thing is the very idea of a plan seems to me a bit vague right now.The Russians,of course,know what they want.For everybody else the best is for things to stay the same.The EU as a whole has issues and no need for another 20 millions impoverished folks taking fewer and fewer jobs.It also has no need to pour money at a humanitarian crisis or sheltering millions of refugees.
          If it comes down to individual countries interests,we have no gain if at some time in the future we will become de facto neighbours of Russia at the Danube and a fvcked up new Ukraine in the North.The Poles will be even more heavily shafted,with western Ukraine exporting its problems to them and demanding their support.
          In this sense,the revolt is genuinely a Ukrainian one.The problem is the revolted part will nor get much of what it hopes for,even if they win.In a perverse possible outcome,the Russians will end up strenghtened,while the rest of the Eastern Europe will end in a weaker position.
          Those who know don't speak
          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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          • #50
            Originally posted by MrSecond View Post
            How do you know they were killed by Berkut?
            Because they were killed with hunting rifles. You know, the usual police weapon - you can see it on every foto... not.

            /sarcasm off
            Winter is coming.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
              I just wanted to let everyone here know what is happening in Little Russia.
              Another act on the game to encircle Russia.That's what is happening.Ukraine is the field of the game for the envisioned Middle Europe of German interests.The game if you check the NGOs isn't played alone by Germany but by US interests too.Ukraine is at the Russian epigastrium and must be cut from Russia's influence.
              In Georgia in 2008 the Russian reflexes were tested.

              American fixations with Russia ( the same ones since the high days of Kissinger and Brezinski).
              Russia is USA's prime antagonist and enemy,it must be encircled,tamed,it must share its resources etc

              The Baltic extras are under NATO's umbrella, Poland too,Romania.Now its time for Ukraine.
              What is happening in Ukraine is basically Russia's cornering by USA but towards what expected outcomes?
              What would follow a Western-controlled/puppet Ukraine?
              Besides new NATO antiballistic missiles in some Ukraine bases.
              A destabilized Russian Caucasus by western sponsored jihadists?
              In little Russia we see another part of this act.
              What are the ultimate goals of the US ABM shield and the Prompt Global Strike initiative Minskaya?Do they consider a preemptive nuclear strike against Russia a winable necessity?

              The current Ukrainian rulers aren't less worthless or corrupted than Yulia Timochenko and her orange revolution was.
              Aren't the NGOs now there sponsored by great "philanthropists" as then?Soros comes in mind first.

              Comment


              • #52
                My question is where is the EU in all of this?

                Wasn't the refusal by the president to sign the deal with the EU the proximate cause for the current troubles?

                So what is the EU doing to help the situation?

                It may be I am missing something but I have not heard of any EU involvement.
                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                Mark Twain

                Comment


                • #53
                  the most talked about "killed" was not really killed, he fell off 13 meter tall arch.
                  "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                    My question is where is the EU in all of this?

                    Wasn't the refusal by the president to sign the deal with the EU the proximate cause for the current troubles?

                    So what is the EU doing to help the situation?

                    It may be I am missing something but I have not heard of any EU involvement.
                    Don't hold your breath for EU reaction. They will issue 10 communiques and then call you guys.
                    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      neither one needs another, EU and Ukraine that is.
                      "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                        My question is where is the EU in all of this?

                        Wasn't the refusal by the president to sign the deal with the EU the proximate cause for the current troubles?

                        So what is the EU doing to help the situation?

                        It may be I am missing something but I have not heard of any EU involvement.
                        Here's a pretty good summary of the situation

                        A Ukrainian Explains 10 Things The West Needs To Know About The Situation In Kiev | Business Insider

                        [Editor's note: This article was submitted to Business Insider by Taras Ilkiv, who felt that outsiders needed to understand these 10 things to really comprehend the situation in Kiev. Ilkiv is the Editor-In-Chief of Newsradio.com.ua, the website for Voice of Capital radio, and formerly an editor at Korrespondent.net. He is from Ivano-Frankivsk in Western Ukraine, and has lived in Kiev for the past seven years. The opinions expressed in this article are his own.]

                        People are fighting for their rights, not for EU membership.
                        Protests in Ukraine are not pro-EU (as it is written in most of international news agencies). The disruption of the association agreement with the European Union in November was only cause for local rallies. But after a peaceful student protest was violently dispersed by the ‘Berkut’ [special police] in Kyiv on Nov. 30, a million angry people took to the central square of the capital. Since then rebellion has not gone away; instead it turned into an anti-government uprising demanding the resignation of the Prime Minister and Interior Minister, and also the resignation of President Viktor Yanukovych. Most people are tired of total corruption in all spheres of life and the lack of justice and security officials’ self-will. The middle class has become an engine of the protest since it suffered harassment from the tax agencies. Now the protest has joined with the radicals, who actually began violent confrontation on Sunday, tired of waiting for action from the liberal opposition. However, they have support among the majority of protesters.

                        Viktor Yanukovych Ukraine
                        The focus of the protests is the democratically elected President Viktor Yanukovych
                        During the presidential elections in 2010, according to the testimony of international observers, Viktor Yanukovych beat his main opponent — the world-famous woman and former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko — legitimately. Then, during his rule, authorities condemned her for a disadvantageous gas contract with Russia and sentenced her to four years in prison! Afterwards Yanukovych and his crew did not dare to go against the Russians and review the contract or resolve the issue in court. This event has spoiled relations of Ukraine’s President with Western leaders. President Obama is ignoring Yanukovych; and Vladimir Putin — with whom Tymoshenko signed gas contracts in 2009 — declared his readiness to accept the treatment of Tymoshenko in Russia for her back ailment.

                        Kiev ukraine protests
                        Many Ukrainians are upset at the power of the “family”
                        The so-called Family (an informal power structure, which consists of officials close to the President) is a very important part of the difficult situation in the country, as some of the most profitable sectors of the Ukrainian economy are under its control. This structure pursues expansion in the media market by acquiring major publication houses. The biggest media-holding, which publishes Forbes and other big brands, was recently redeemed for $US300-400 million. Also, since most of the channels have tried to avoid criticism of the authorities, more or less truthful news was only available on the Internet. The total wealth of the President’s son, Alexander Yanukovych, in is alleged to have tripled, reaching $US510 million, in recent years, and the President himself won’t explain how that could have happened.

                        Ukraine Protests
                        Another problem: Ukraine’s strong power vertical
                        During his reign Yanukovych transformed the country from a parliamentary republic to a presidential system. He built a rugged chain of command, where all power structures, tax agencies, prosecutors and courts are directly subordinated to his will. He uses it not only as a tool to decimate his opponents, but also to solve his necessary business matters.

                        Ukraine


                        People find it hard to uncover the truth
                        Ukraine has almost no independent media outside of the Internet. Some people from the industrial East, which borders with Russia, do not even know the truth about what is happening in Kyiv. Central TV channels just do not show, or distort the information. Printing presses are monopolized or owned by oligarchs. Until recently, the only true island of freedom was of the Internet, but last Friday Yanukovych signed a law that allows anybody to close any websites without trial or warning because of the slightest complaint. Journalists face enormous pressure and huge campaigns to discredit them. One journalist, Tatyana Chornovol, who wrote about the wealth of Yanukovych, was recently severely beaten by five intruders.

                        Tetyana Chernovil Ukraine
                        Intimidation has become a part of daily life
                        Within this strong repressive machine, the courts and prosecutors can intimidate those activists and public figures who disagree with the regime. Some people were forced to flee abroad, while some are deprived of property. The president blames it on the courts, but everyone understands that the courts are fully controlled by him. For example, Yanukovych signed an act on Friday that allows a person to be sentenced without his or her presence in the court, as it was in times of Stalin in the mid-twentieth century. The Government even hires special fighters from sports clubs, performing the “dirty” job of intimidation of people who disagree. Many of Yanukovych’s former supporters have lost their businesses over the last few years because of the expansion of the Family empire. Journalists have concluded that this structure, which is controlled by the president’s son, began to absorb more and more of other people’s assets.

                        Uk16
                        The opposition is weak
                        The Ukrainian opposition is going through hard times. It is represented by at least three political forces. One of the parties, which was once headed by Tymoshenko, has repeatedly been elected to Parliament and is largely discredited, but still elected. The second is headed by world boxing champion Vitali Klitschko, and has been able to get a lot of support recently. They have been called the most suitable party for the presidential office. The third force are the nationalists, which gained popularity due to the success of their radical slogans amongst disappointed electorate. After two months of protest, none of these parties have found a compromise with the government, and none have offered any clear plan of action for the people. The leaders of these three parties are fighting tacitly amongst themselves for the post of the one and only opposition candidate in elections in 2015. Their uncoordinated actions disappointed radicals, who went on to clash with police on Sunday, Jan. 19. After four days of bloody confrontation, these political leaders have been unable to find a way out of the situation. They no longer have any control in the riots.

                        Uke2
                        The ‘Berkut’ units poses a special problem
                        The mainstay of the Yanukovych regime is the ‘Berkut’ special forces, troops that are part of the Ministry of Interior. Though they have had no official status, they are formed of police officers specially trained to suppress the uprising. Their number is small — only four thousand — but they are particularly severe and receive a good salary for their work. Only in recent days have pictures been circling on the Web of these special forces brutally beating journalists and peaceful demonstrators. Recently they allegedly caught protesters, stripped them and doused them with water at 14°F. In addition, in recent days, they indiscriminately fired on protesters — an act that is clearly against the law. It is important to note that so far the army refused to defend the regime of Yanukovych and fight against the people, according to Ukrainian sources.

                        This video shows the Berkut:



                        Most people think the West has been too passive
                        Until this week the reaction of the U.S. and other Western countries to the events in Ukraine was very low-key. Many protesters do not really believe in that the EU and the U.S. are ready to help Ukrainians uphold democratic values. Additionally, there were rumours in the local press that America agreed to give Ukraine to Putin in exchange for increasing U.S. influence in Syria and other hot spots. The first shift was detected only on Jan. 22, when the United States finally announced visa sanctions against the officials involved in violence against peaceful demonstrators in Ukraine’s capital after the death of several people in the Kyiv rally. The EU has just issued diplomatic statements, saying they will not impose any sanctions yet. Here’s an interesting fact: To get tourist a visa for few days’ visit to the EU, Ukrainians have to go through an extremely complicated procedure and pay a fee of 35 euros (the average salary in Ukraine is around 300 euros). All the officials involved in the Yanukovych regime have the right to freely visit the EU.

                        John McCain Oleh Tyahnybok
                        The protests themselves have been amazingly innovative
                        If you walk through the center of Kyiv city you will be shocked how the heart of the riot, the Square of Independence (Maidan Nezalezhnosti), is working: People from all over Ukraine are coming to Maidan, bringing everything you need to live in military conditions. There are a lot of tents where you can get rest, a couple of heating barrels, field kitchens, a stage, Maidan’s own hospital, private security and even an impromptu university. There is no alcohol in this place, and strict discipline is the main advantage of Maidan. On the borders of the square they have built huge barricades in case of regime assault. Despite the reports of the pro-government media, all the people are here not for “American money” but for the idea and for a better future. One unique form of protest is the “Automaidan.” The drivers just take their cars and block SWAT buses or whole police buildings to prevent the possible illegal actions against peaceful people.

                        Here’s Automaidan in action:
                        Like Minskaya said, there are a lot of proto-fascist elements that are at the vanguard of the action against the Berkut/Police, Svoboda and the "Right-Sector" have been at the core of the uprising. Ukranian nationalism is tinged with a significant amount of anti-Russian sentiment from the Soviet era, but I don't think these elements are specifically pro-EU nor can their narrative be painted in a pro-EU light, at the same time, they are obviously trying to play to nationalist sentiment and oust a Russian mafioso/robber-baron oligarch (Yanukovych) which they will receive a lot of popular support for.

                        Whatever scenario, I still don't really see Ukraine falling into the EUs orbit after this - neofascists and EU co-operation is something I'm extremely skeptical about
                        Last edited by Bridgeburner_; 24 Jan 14,, 18:27.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by omon View Post
                          neither one needs another, EU and Ukraine that is.
                          Why Ukraine, including current President wanted to start negotiations to enter EU and why EU offered such a deal?
                          It can't be like thay had nothing better to do.
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                            Why Ukraine, including current President wanted to start negotiations to enter EU and why EU offered such a deal?
                            .
                            that is an excelent question, i'm sure if you email, EU or President, they might answer it, but i can't.
                            however if you read post #49 here, than read list of things ukraine had to do, to be in EU, you might see exactly why i said what i said.
                            "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Isn't Gorbachev loathed in Russia?In a way he destroyed them.
                              I cannot hypothesize on Ukraine's fate,on which side will control her.With a destabilized Turkey ( Turkey reminds me Yugoslavia in late 80s,the alevis require more rights.An independent Kurdistan state seems inevitable in 10-15 years, it could even serve the Israeli stability and American interests in best ways than the current situation does,at least that's what you read on enough think tanks publications and some interesting Israeli articles since the Israeli-Turkish crisis) and a cornered Russia many things could happen.Watch how Saudi Arabia acts against American wishes on the support in the military coop in Egypt,the economic support of non Syrian extremist jihadists,the economic support on jihadists in Russian Caucasus.
                              With a lost Ukraine Russia could attempt her breakthrough to Mediterranean Sea.If Iran plays along the American interests,if the ethnic and religious war in Iraq between Shias,Sunnis, Kurds leads it to dissolve,an independent Kurdistan will become a necessity for all major players.Turkey will react sporadically,opportunistically with a conflict maybe with Greece or Cyprus.Easten Mediterranean has a lot of oil and gas,if Turkey will lose in Kurdistan she must earn something.The obvious target is Greece.

                              In a way the situation in Ukraine can lead in conjunction with Turkey's situation to a regional war with Russia achieving the always sought exit to the Mediterranean Sea.
                              A situation like previous century's in Crimea and the following Russian-Turkish war where Czar's troops marched to Constantinople.Ukrainian matter's resolve is a significant step to that.
                              An attrition war between Turkey and Russia in this case could serve Western states, getting rid both of Turkey and weakening Russia.But how would NATO react if Russia denied to abandon the straights of black Sea?
                              You've seen the greater middle east plan's map I assume.As I see it Ukraine's situation is a significant minor step for the changes in middle east.Iran is the major concern and Turkey the suitable "New Bosnia".
                              Will NATO intervene in Turkey as in Yugoslavia and make the black sea straights international, or will Russia cornered or bold with a Ukrainian loss or gain get there first?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by geographein View Post
                                Isn't Gorbachev loathed in Russia?In a way he destroyed them.
                                I cannot hypothesize on Ukraine's fate,on which side will control her.With a destabilized Turkey ( Turkey reminds me Yugoslavia in late 80s,the alevis require more rights.An independent Kurdistan state seems inevitable in 10-15 years, it could even serve the Israeli stability and American interests in best ways than the current situation does,at least that's what you read on enough think tanks publications and some interesting Israeli articles since the Israeli-Turkish crisis) and a cornered Russia many things could happen.Watch how Saudi Arabia acts against American wishes on the support in the military coop in Egypt,the economic support of non Syrian extremist jihadists,the economic support on jihadists in Russian Caucasus.
                                With a lost Ukraine Russia could attempt her breakthrough to Mediterranean Sea.If Iran plays along the American interests,if the ethnic and religious war in Iraq between Shias,Sunnis, Kurds leads it to dissolve,an independent Kurdistan will become a necessity for all major players.Turkey will react sporadically,opportunistically with a conflict maybe with Greece or Cyprus.Easten Mediterranean has a lot of oil and gas,if Turkey will lose in Kurdistan she must earn something.The obvious target is Greece.

                                In a way the situation in Ukraine can lead in conjunction with Turkey's situation to a regional war with Russia achieving the always sought exit to the Mediterranean Sea.
                                A situation like previous century's in Crimea and the following Russian-Turkish war where Czar's troops marched to Constantinople.Ukrainian matter's resolve is a significant step to that.
                                An attrition war between Turkey and Russia in this case could serve Western states, getting rid both of Turkey and weakening Russia.But how would NATO react if Russia denied to abandon the straights of black Sea?
                                You've seen the greater middle east plan's map I assume.As I see it Ukraine's situation is a significant minor step for the changes in middle east.Iran is the major concern and Turkey the suitable "New Bosnia".
                                Will NATO intervene in Turkey as in Yugoslavia and make the black sea straights international, or will Russia cornered or bold with a Ukrainian loss or gain get there first?
                                Welcome onboard, geographein.

                                You express some interesting positions. Care to elaborate them with some links for further readings on which you base such assumptions.

                                Oh, and please introduce yourself here, we don't like to talk to strangers ;)
                                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                                Comment

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