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Black Thursday for Ukraine

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  • #91
    Regarding special security forces (Berkut), Yanukovych has already robbed Peter (the provinces) to protect Paul (Kyiv). That is why he can't do much about the rebellious northern/western cities.

    When Ukraine gained independence, it declared itself to be a neutral country. Thus it has a relatively weak military. I highly doubt that conscript soldiers would partake in any repressive measures against their brethren.
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    • #92
      L'viv - Soldiers have removed a Yanukovych supporter from their barracks and there are reports that some members of the Berkut in the city were resigning.
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      • #93
        Originally posted by NUS View Post
        Because they were killed with hunting rifles. You know, the usual police weapon - you can see it on every foto... not.

        /sarcasm off
        good question. i assume by hunting rifle you mean a shotgun.
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        Last edited by omon; 25 Jan 14,, 17:31.
        "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Doktor View Post
          Balkanization of Ukraine would be the very next step. If that's the outcome, then why not doing it peacefully like Czechs and Slovaks did?
          I suppose thatís not a good option because there is no any precise border between Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine. Actually, some people do not identify themselves as exactly Russians or exactly Ukrainians. This is the mixed people, very mixed. No way it may be peacfully and quiet as it was in Czechoslovakia. Imo.

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          • #95
            If there is no other option and they have to divide, it is better to do it Czechoslovakia style then our way. At least more people will be alive and the economy wont end in shithole.

            The division is clear, just overlap the election maps. The bordering regions will have issues, but I guess there will be a lot of migration.
            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by omon View Post
              good question. i assume by hunting rifle you mean a shotgun.
              Let's not get into the murderous regime meme.So far it's not the case.People can very easily die when shot with less lethal munitions,in this circumstance, rubber bullets.Particularly if said munitions are old,and I think there are quite a few such things in the arsenal of the Ukr. police.
              Those who know don't speak
              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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              • #97
                Originally posted by MrSecond View Post
                I suppose that’s not a good option because there is no any precise border between Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine. Actually, some people do not identify themselves as exactly Russians or exactly Ukrainians. This is the mixed people, very mixed. No way it may be peacfully and quiet as it was in Czechoslovakia. Imo.
                And that's a problem for everybody else,including Russia.EU(less likely) and Russian(certainly) troops will intervene.You have the Georgian experience. :)
                Those who know don't speak
                He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                • #98
                  Revolutions and wars are so tricky processes. There may be some moment, some point, after that there are no people who is able to control anything. And then this map may change unpredictably and absolutely not according to anyones' expectations.
                  And besides, the political culture is very important. Have you ever seen sessions of Verkhovnaya Rada? No, I don't believe the divorce can be peaceful. But I may be wrong, nobody knows actually.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                    Let's not get into the murderous regime meme.So far it's not the case.People can very easily die when shot with less lethal munitions,in this circumstance, rubber bullets.Particularly if said munitions are old,and I think there are quite a few such things in the arsenal of the Ukr. police.
                    They had quite a few events the rubber bullets to get old.
                    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                    • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                      And that's a problem for everybody else,including Russia.EU(less likely) and Russian(certainly) troops will intervene.You have the Georgian experience. :)
                      I don't think this the scenario that Kremlin wants to have. No, Putin wants the whole Ukraine, he doesn't want many little ukraines with many little presidents.

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                      • Originally posted by MrSecond View Post
                        I don't think this the scenario that Kremlin wants to have. No, Putin wants the whole Ukraine, he doesn't want many little ukraines with many little presidents.
                        Putin is not suffering from lack of realism.And the reality is he can't have all Ukraine.Another reality is that Western Ukraine is trouble for whoever gets it.Why would you want to bother yourselves with it?

                        This separation,if it happens will be just a new Treaty of Pereyaslav and Putin another Alexei Mikhailovich.
                        Those who know don't speak
                        He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                        • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                          Putin is not suffering from lack of realism.And the reality is he can't have all Ukraine.Another reality is that Western Ukraine is trouble for whoever gets it.Why would you want to bother yourselves with it?
                          I agree - of course, if we are to see the collapse of Ukraine. But until it has not happen and we still have some options, I'd suppose the intact unparted Ukraine is much more preferable as a prospective member of Customs union and Russia's ally.

                          Besides, Western Ukraine is an important transit territory for Russian gas. Just imagine what may happen if that troubled area gets independence. Cold winter for Europe and lack of currency for Russia...
                          Last edited by MrSecond; 25 Jan 14,, 20:54.

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                          • Originally posted by NUS View Post
                            Because they were killed with hunting rifles. You know, the usual police weapon - you can see it on every foto... not.

                            /sarcasm off
                            As far as I can find, the majority of hunting rifles are ex-military AK-47s with millions of cheap FMJs around. Don't supposed you have a report of a soft nose bullet kill?

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                            • According to many internal and external sources, Yanukovych has today offered the following concessions:

                              An amnesty for everyone who has taken part in the protests
                              All arrested protesters will be released without prosecution
                              Opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk has been offered the position of Prime Minister replacing Mykola Azarov
                              Opposition leader Vitali Klitschko has been offered the position of Deputy Prime Minister for Humanitarian Affairs
                              Changes in the Cabinet (sacking Interior Minister Vitaliy Zakharchenko?)
                              Amending the repressive laws of Black Thursday
                              Possibly rolling back the constitution as it was in 2004
                              sigpic

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                              • Opposition says 'No'.
                                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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