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  • #76
    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
    I am fairly certain there is some logical explanation I am not seeing.
    The regional/district administrators (governors) are appointed by the president. Ergo, they are all Yanukovych loyalists.
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    • #77
      Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
      The regional/district administrators (governors) are appointed by the president. Ergo, they are all Yanukovych loyalists.
      I suspected so. Thanks.
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Doktor View Post
        How does what you said replicate to UK? From what I can hear you guys want out of EU, yet every single last of your Governments refuse to make the step in that direction. Should London burn?
        I think my views on the EU are well known here. The difference is that Cameron does not go around trying to make it a criminal offence to call him a lying idiot - which he is. If he were to do so he would guilty of trying to subvert the system. When faced with being criminalised for voicing your opinions those who wish to continue to do so must protect themselves against the forces of suppression.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          I think my views on the EU are well known here. The difference is that Cameron does not go around trying to make it a criminal offence to call him a lying idiot - which he is. If he were to do so he would guilty of trying to subvert the system. When faced with being criminalised for voicing your opinions those who wish to continue to do so must protect themselves against the forces of suppression.
          And how exactly have president of Ukraine suppresed someone?
          Winter is coming.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by NUS View Post
            And how exactly have president of Ukraine suppresed someone?
            Have you read the January 16th laws? Let me give you some idea of what I mean. One of these laws makes it a criminal offence to slander public officials. No doubt you and everyone else is aware of slander rules; if someone were to say to someone else that I or you eat children or indulge some other form morally reprehensible behavior - for example that we were corrupt - then I, or you, could sue them. If what they say is untrue they pay damages and if it turns out to be true well then we were silly for suing. This is a civil procedure legally; nobody goes to prison because it's only my/your reputation at stake. Now if someone were to allege that Yanukovich or any Government official were corrupt the police come after him/her if they are in Ukraine. As part of the trial in absentia laws should someone on this forum make such an allegation here we may found guilty in our absence and arrested next time we return to Ukraine. This might not matter to you of course but to me, and I imagine to Minskaya, it does; it is an attempt to curb freedom of speech.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by snapper View Post
              Have you read the January 16th laws?
              No, have you?

              I have problems reading Ukrainian, but as far as i understand from other sources they are not even half as bad as hysterical opposition activists are trying to tell us. Picture about laws posted above consist mostly from half-truth, misinterpretation and direct lies. Typical propaganda.

              Not to mention the fact that nobody was prosecuted using those laws.
              Last edited by NUS; 25 Jan 14,, 08:20.
              Winter is coming.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                I suspected so. Thanks.
                The president appoints and can remove regional/district administrators and governors. Under this system, the governors act as a tool of the president rather than function as a representative of his/her constituency.

                This is one of the reasons why people want a more Westernized constitution, government, and legal system
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                • #83
                  Originally posted by snapper View Post
                  Now if someone were to allege that Yanukovich or any Government official were corrupt the police come after him/her if they are in Ukraine. As part of the trial in absentia laws should someone on this forum make such an allegation here we may found guilty in our absence and arrested next time we return to Ukraine. This might not matter to you of course but to me, and I imagine to Minskaya, it does; it is an attempt to curb freedom of speech.
                  Rather than viewing libel/defamation/slander as an action falling within civil code, this is now a criminal offense. The legislation specifically protects government officials, judges, and police. If I believe someone in government is corrupt, I cannot say so as a citizen unless such a thing has already been validated by a court! The penalties can range from an exorbitant fine to a year of corrective labor in a prison colony. The new libel laws apply both to citizens and journalists. You can also now be tried and convicted in absentia... totally unaware of what has transpired behind closed doors.

                  If the libel law (muzzling free speech) wasn't bad enough, it is also now against the law for private citizens and journalists to investigate corruption by government officials, judges, and police. As anyone can plainly grasp, these new laws encourage, insulate, and protect tyranny.
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                  • #84


                    A handy map as it shows the political divide in 2010 and current areas of civilian unrest.
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                    • #85
                      A policeman has been found shot to death in Kyiv. Yanukovych has reportedly offered concessions when the Rada meets in emergency session on Tuesday. The EuroMaidan opposition has requested that neutral Swiss diplomats act as mediators between itself and the government. It is uncertain if the Right Sector (Patriot/Trident) would abide by this.
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                      • #86
                        There seems to be a perception out there that indiscriminately attacking the authorities as a whole is somehow better than indiscriminately targeting civilians. Guaranteed some of these cops that are having petrol bombs lobbed at them are Catholic and pro-Europe.

                        The Western media needs to stop describing those who seek to kill and maim as being "protesters". It's just as laughable now as it was in the coverage of the uprisings in Libya and in Syria when "protesters" were killing cops and military. I wasn't happy to see Russia interfere in the Ukraine's affairs but Lavrov is right when he says we wouldn't tolerate this level of unrest in our cities.

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                        • #87
                          It's already been noted that there are thugs and provocateurs in the midst of these protests. Doesn't diminish the legitimacy of the struggle...yet. "...yet..." suggests the potential for a legitimate aspiration becoming hijacked by a more nefarious agenda. That remains to be seen. While you're correct that western nations would likely be no more tolerant of open violence, the circumstances behind each event is unique.

                          "Guaranteed some of these cops that are having petrol bombs lobbed at them are Catholic and pro-Europe..."

                          Sure. Some hurt. Some mad.

                          Some beginning to question what their uniform increasingly actually represents to their friends, families and neighbors. The issue may be sufficiently large that a continuing commitment to enforcing order might garner a personal reassessment.

                          A career crisis, if you will.

                          Common enough among state security forces, it seems, at moments of uber-crisis.

                          Perhaps even an accurate barometer. The legitimacy of civil unrest might be measured by the erosion of morale within the state security apparatus.
                          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                          • #88
                            If they are anything like us, former Yugos, there will be a huge transfer of security forces from east to west and vice versa.

                            If it's worth something as a lesson, it would be a bad move since those from the east will be more brutal, and those from the west will desert en masse.
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                            • #89
                              "...there will be a huge transfer of security forces from east to west and vice versa..."

                              Fairly crude Stalinist technique. Also to be viewed as a measure of last resort. If the crowd isn't cowed by the appearance of brutal strangers then you've a real fight on your hands. Worse, desertions by the local lads sent elsewhere likely to rocket.

                              And those deserters? Straight home. Quite likely WITH their weapons.

                              Civil war?

                              We've already seen elsewhere there's a real potential for matters to go dramatically upside-down rapidly where repression has been long-standing and the bitterness to match resides in abundance.
                              "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                              "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                              • #90
                                Give it some short time and few fatalities and you will also see those from the East flee.

                                Balkanization of Ukraine would be the very next step. If that's the outcome, then why not doing it peacefully like Czechs and Slovaks did?
                                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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