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  • "Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience. Therefore individual citizens have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring"
    Nuremburg War Crimes Tribunal

    Unfortunately that's not a quote from Nuremburg. The first reference to it I can find is in 2002. Still a thought provoking piece though
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

    Leibniz

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    • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
      A question. How trustworthy Tomgram is?

      A quick glance and it surely looks like a CT site.
      Dok

      It's trustworthiness doesn't matter much. It's all about the message. For example, there's this one:

      We are, in other words, in a new world where practices that once would have shocked have become the norm of news and pundit chitchat. TomDispatch, however, refuses to consider any of this “normal.”

      This is rank bullsh*t. We are not in a new world; we're in a world influenced by events, such as, and not limited to, an abnormally high level of terror activity and threats from avowed enemies. If someone doubts that, they need only go back to a previous period of conflict. My favorite is the American Civil War when northern newspapers were closed down for overly criticizing the government and when people were jailed and habeas corpus was suspended (over the objection of the Supreme Court, and so on. In short, the author on TomGram has it wrong. This is not a new world; it's a world whose wheel has come around to where it was once before. Let me quickly add that that does make me complacent. There comes a time for hard measures and when that time is passed, they should be retired, as was the case soon after the Civil War. If they are not, then we'd better worry.

      The second thing was the article by fellow 'whistle blower' Peter Van Buren. This guy talks as if he is in a special club of leakers that deserve sympathy because they are badly treated by the government. Like---of all things--being arrested for breaking the law. Anyway, Snowden is not a classic whistle-blower. He's no Fitzgerald exposing cost overruns on the C5 cargo plane. He's a leaker of top secret information. What did he expose? The extraordinary means of the government to protect its people from terror threats? Or, a sinister plan by which the executive branch of government to control its people and people everywhere. We'll know when the 'war' is over.
      To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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      • Jad, thanks for the reply. It appears to me I used a wrong word. Should have said serious (still not sure )

        Didn't engage into reading the article (but will now) just because all the titles and even the header looked too CT for my taste.

        In my head I still have doubts over this Snowden fella. On one hand I am glad he exposed all this info and put some of US allies on toes, on the other I have doubts his motives were so pure as he tries to represent them. However, if I was American, I'd hated him. He did a harm to the country. Both to the intel community as well as to the image of USA.
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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        • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
          In my head I still have doubts over this Snowden fella. On one hand I am glad he exposed all this info and put some of US allies on toes, on the other I have doubts his motives were so pure as he tries to represent them. However, if I was American, I'd hated him. He did a harm to the country. Both to the intel community as well as to the image of USA.
          I am not yet glad that Snowden revealed what he did or when he did it, nor am I sure I ever will. Maintaining perspective is hard. But when you realize the whole thing is being 99% characterized by the media, it's not very difficult to avoid a rush to judgement.
          To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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          • Of course, Snowden is running across the world to evade the horrible and unspeakable treatment that Bradley Manning received when he was imprisoned without a trial for more than a year. His right to habeas corpus wasn't recognized, so why would Snowden willingly put himself under those circumstances? Snowden is plainly not jeopardizing American national security by releasing things that the NSA is doing on American soil that are illegal, and clearly breaching Section 218 the Patriot Act. Section 218 explains that a warrant is needed to intercept e-mails, phone calls, etc. American citizens should know these things anyway - but if Snowden did indeed release something that put American troops overseas in danger, or put America under threat from another terrorist attack, it would be a different story completely.

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            • Different circumstances. Snowden was a civilian contractor. Manning is US military.
              sigpic

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              • I know, but Snowden did not put American lives in danger, he just blew that whistle on something the government was doing that was illegal. There's no reason to suspect he was a terrorist, or had any ill will towards the American people, but just wanted to enlighten them on something their government was doing behind their backs that they should be concerned about. The "Well, if you're not doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about!" argument is ridiculous, because I may not be doing anything illegal, I just don't want Big Brother watching everything I do, all the time. Mind you, I'm not an American citizen, but this is something that I'm very concerned about.

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                • I hate to burst your bubble, but Canada (CSE) is a member of the Five Eyes intelligence community (Canada, United States, Britain, Australia, New Zealand).
                  sigpic

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                  • Originally posted by D2theShizzle View Post
                    Of course, Snowden is running across the world to evade the horrible and unspeakable treatment that Bradley Manning received when he was imprisoned without a trial for more than a year. His right to habeas corpus wasn't recognized, so why would Snowden willingly put himself under those circumstances?
                    Shizzle, you can start by knowing what you're talking about.

                    Habeus corpus is invoked after a conviction, not before.

                    Snowden is a fugitive from justice. Manning's trial is wrapping up.

                    http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/habeas_corpus


                    Snowden is plainly not jeopardizing American national security by releasing things that the NSA is doing on American soil that are illegal, and clearly breaching Section 218 the Patriot Act. Section 218 explains that a warrant is needed to intercept e-mails, phone calls, etc
                    .

                    That is not the point. The material he released was classified. It's a crime to release classified information. Even if some of it points to government mistakes or illegal activity, it is not his call to make that judgement. Manning released more the 700,000 documents. Did he vet each one to see if it was evidence of wrong doing? No way.


                    American citizens should know these things anyway - but if Snowden did indeed release something that put American troops overseas in danger, or put America under threat from another terrorist attack, it would be a different story completely.
                    Nonsense. The criteria for classifying information is not solely whether the information would put troops overseas in harms way. There are many valid non-military considerations, for example, US positions on government-to-government negotiations...

                    Bradley Manning and William Snowden presumed themselves to be one-man Freedom of Information bureaus. If they are allowed to do it, why not everyone with a Top Secret clearance.
                    Last edited by JAD_333; 12 Jul 13,, 20:35.
                    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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                    • I was wondering about that, so thanks.

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                      • From what I understand, Snowden has formally applied for asylum in Russia and stated that he would comply with the Russian demand that he cease leaking classified information while on Russian soil. He acknowledged though, that his ultimate goal remains asylum in one of the Latin American countries that are willing to accept him.
                        sigpic

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                        • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                          .

                          That is not the point. The material he released was classified. It's a crime to release classified information. Even if some of it points to government mistakes or illegal activity, it is not his call to make that judgement. Manning released more the 700,000 documents. Did he vet each one to see if it was evidence of wrong doing? No way.




                          Nonsense. The criteria for classifying information is not solely whether the information would put troops overseas in harms way. There are many valid non-military considerations, for example, US positions on government-to-government negotiations...

                          Bradley Manning and William Snowden presumed themselves to be one-man Freedom of Information bureaus. If they are allowed to do it, why not everyone with a Top Secret clearance.
                          Manning is a traitor,pure and simple.He put Coalition and Afghan lives in danger.

                          Snowden's is a bit more delicate.What he did is illegal.But the ComBloc security services were following the law.They even killed people because the law said so.Snitching,wiretapping etc... were mundane tasks.We are bound to respect the law and the political order that makes them.But we can't do that against our peoples.And doing what the NSA did is an attack against your people.It's not that everybody does it,directly or via proxies.Snitching via 3d parties is fairly common.''We do nothing of the sort and we have no knowledge of somebody elses actions.Btw,what we receive from friendly services is classified.It involves current operations and sensitive assets''

                          This sort of crap is still wrong and imoral,but everybody does it.Men are corruptible beings and power leads to corruption.It all comes to personal decisions.You choose to be a part of it and become a monster in due time.Or you go to work in areas where the mission and the calling as a defender of the country still rings true.
                          Those who know don't speak
                          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                          • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                            Manning is a traitor,pure and simple.He put Coalition and Afghan lives in danger.

                            Snowden's is a bit more delicate.What he did is illegal.But the ComBloc security services were following the law.They even killed people because the law said so.Snitching,wiretapping etc... were mundane tasks.We are bound to respect the law and the political order that makes them.But we can't do that against our peoples.And doing what the NSA did is an attack against your people.It's not that everybody does it,directly or via proxies.Snitching via 3d parties is fairly common.''We do nothing of the sort and we have no knowledge of somebody elses actions.Btw,what we receive from friendly services is classified.It involves current operations and sensitive assets''
                            I get what you're saying: just following orders. I'm not ready to accept that NSA's actions were "an attack" us. At least not if they were following the law. First of all we really don't know the whole story. If just a few people at NSA were going beyond the law, I wouldn't consider that as bad as wholesale violation up and down the line. I mean, we all know that cops and soldiers sometimes take shortcuts. As for morality, I am not sure that enters into what any nation does to protect its national security.


                            This sort of crap is still wrong and imoral,but everybody does it.Men are corruptible beings and power leads to corruption.It all comes to personal decisions.You choose to be a part of it and become a monster in due time.Or you go to work in areas where the mission and the calling as a defender of the country still rings true.
                            True. You'll never be able to stop it, but you can minimize it by catching and punishing the culprits like Manning and Snowden.
                            To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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                            • The dirty white, the dirty US politician.

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                              • Bugger me ,,you still here ???

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