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Neonazi Terrorism in Germany

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  • They actually built a special site in the outskirts of Frankfurt to hold the trials for security reasons (and because the actual court building will have renovations starting in June).

    Click image for larger version

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    (during construction - by now they've added a barbwire fence around it as well)

    The other ongoing case in Stuttgart is being held at the "Stammheim Judicial Area" which was originally built in the late 1970s for the trials against Red Army Faction terrorists. The government had a new high-security court built there in 2019 (to replace the one from the RAF trials). In the last few years it was mostly used for trials against Syrian war criminals.

    There's a third trial planned to be held in Munich at the same court that more recently held the NSU trial.

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    • Originally posted by kato View Post
      They actually built a special site in the outskirts of Frankfurt to hold the trials for security reasons (and because the actual court building will have renovations starting in June).

      Click image for larger version

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Views:	91
Size:	131.0 KB
ID:	1606806
      (during construction - by now they've added a barbwire fence around it as well)

      The other ongoing case in Stuttgart is being held at the "Stammheim Judicial Area" which was originally built in the late 1970s for the trials against Red Army Faction terrorists. The government had a new high-security court built there in 2019 (to replace the one from the RAF trials). In the last few years it was mostly used for trials against Syrian war criminals.

      There's a third trial planned to be held in Munich at the same court that more recently held the NSU trial.
      I remember the talk in the early 1980s about the special RAF jail in Stuttgart. Saw it from a distance a few times...my ex worked in Vaihingen and I was stationed in Goeppingen. Went to Stuttgart a lot 81-84 as that was where the big PX was and hospital.

      Also glad you added this was underconstruction photo cause I was going to make a comment on the lack of physical security!
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

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      • For something closer to home:

        A few weeks ago the neighboring house to my family's old countryside farm was raided, close enough that my (close to 90-year-old) aunt could watch from her window. Parts of the place had been rented out to a weapons dealer as a storage place. He was suspected as a "Reichsbürger". Based on the items recovered from there and two other places - including several hundred guns - he was charged with violations of weapons laws, war weapons laws and explosives laws.

        Last year there was also a raid in connection with the Reuß case in the same village.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by kato View Post
          For something closer to home:

          A few weeks ago the neighboring house to my family's old countryside farm was raided, close enough that my (close to 90-year-old) aunt could watch from her window. Parts of the place had been rented out to a weapons dealer as a storage place. He was suspected as a "Reichsbürger". Based on the items recovered from there and two other places - including several hundred guns - he was charged with violations of weapons laws, war weapons laws and explosives laws.

          Last year there was also a raid in connection with the Reuß case in the same village.
          If I might ask...what state was that in?
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

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          • Originally posted by kato View Post
            For something closer to home:

            A few weeks ago the neighboring house to my family's old countryside farm was raided, close enough that my (close to 90-year-old) aunt could watch from her window. Parts of the place had been rented out to a weapons dealer as a storage place. He was suspected as a "Reichsbürger". Based on the items recovered from there and two other places - including several hundred guns - he was charged with violations of weapons laws, war weapons laws and explosives laws.

            Last year there was also a raid in connection with the Reuß case in the same village.
            Nazism is always going to be an ongoing problem for you just like racism is for us. Only yours are more dangerous from the sounds of all the weapons they try to amass and hide. I don't know about militias here, that I'm sure the FBI monitors, and how they would compare to yours in fervence.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
              Only yours are more dangerous from the sounds of all the weapons they try to amass and hide.
              Bavaria published some statistics today:
              • 5406 people in the state (out of 13.08 million) are members of a Reichsbürger "scene", i.e. adhere to such beliefs. 530 of them are onsidered "hardcore extremists", 500 of them are considered "violent extremists" (with fairly large overlap between these two groups). The numbers include 3 police officers (out of 44,000) and 8 other sworn-in state employees (out of about 190,000).
              • the three largest Reichsbürger groups as organizations have 80, 60 and 50 members in the state (these groups are active nationwide). The largest of these is a paramilitary militia with a couple hundred members nationwide that's under observation by domestic intelligence.
              • as of end of 2023 in total 24 Reichsbürger in Bavaria legally owned a total of 76 firearms. For 29 people a revocation of a weapons permit was launched in 2023 (this may include some of the 24) and 93 firearms were confiscated.
              • during the last five years Reichsbürger in Bavaria have committed 2248 political crimes of which 104 were considered "politically motivated - rightwing" (8 of them violent). 2042 were classified "politically motivated - other" (560 of them violent, 1 terrorism). About half the crimes were directed against state employees.
              • Most of the crimes for which descriptions are listed for 2023 were attempted coercion or extortion in some form (considered violent if physical threats were used). The list also includes a few instances of shooting guns in the broad direction of other people, one case in which an unknown skin-irritating substance was mailed, and a number of cases of general assault.


              With regard to the weapons numbers, for the same date (Dec 31st 2023) in total 205,000 Bavarians owned 1.13 million registered firearms. The Reichsbürger among them are a tiny minority and in fact less than their overall share in the population. There has been an active campaign in the last two years to identify Reichsbürger with registered firearms and disarm them which is almost "complete" now.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by kato View Post

                Bavaria published some statistics today:
                • 5406 people in the state (out of 13.08 million) are members of a Reichsbürger "scene", i.e. adhere to such beliefs. 530 of them are onsidered "hardcore extremists", 500 of them are considered "violent extremists" (with fairly large overlap between these two groups). The numbers include 3 police officers (out of 44,000) and 8 other sworn-in state employees (out of about 190,000).
                • the three largest Reichsbürger groups as organizations have 80, 60 and 50 members in the state (these groups are active nationwide). The largest of these is a paramilitary militia with a couple hundred members nationwide that's under observation by domestic intelligence.
                • as of end of 2023 in total 24 Reichsbürger in Bavaria legally owned a total of 76 firearms. For 29 people a revocation of a weapons permit was launched in 2023 (this may include some of the 24) and 93 firearms were confiscated.
                • during the last five years Reichsbürger in Bavaria have committed 2248 political crimes of which 104 were considered "politically motivated - rightwing" (8 of them violent). 2042 were classified "politically motivated - other" (560 of them violent, 1 terrorism). About half the crimes were directed against state employees.
                • Most of the crimes for which descriptions are listed for 2023 were attempted coercion or extortion in some form (considered violent if physical threats were used). The list also includes a few instances of shooting guns in the broad direction of other people, one case in which an unknown skin-irritating substance was mailed, and a number of cases of general assault.


                With regard to the weapons numbers, for the same date (Dec 31st 2023) in total 205,000 Bavarians owned 1.13 million registered firearms. The Reichsbürger among them are a tiny minority and in fact less than their overall share in the population. There has been an active campaign in the last two years to identify Reichsbürger with registered firearms and disarm them which is almost "complete" now.
                Kato,

                My remembrance is dated but I seem to recall that gun ownership was higher in Bayern & Schwabia because of the wide numbers of shooting clubs. Is that still true? Admittedly my knowledge is a few decades in the past.
                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                Mark Twain

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                  My remembrance is dated but I seem to recall that gun ownership was higher in Bayern & Schwabia because of the wide numbers of shooting clubs. Is that still true? Admittedly my knowledge is a few decades in the past.
                  There were some major changes to weapons laws in 2003 with subsequent updates, mostly due to some mass shootings with legal guns (e.g. teens having access to their parents' sports guns). During that time it was made more difficult for people - especially younger people - to get a gun permit through a sports club, as well as mandating requirements for gun safekeeping such as requiring gun safes. In 2013 Germany also introduced a national firearms register. Before that the weapons laws had loopholes everywhere which were often exploited by people - there was actually stuff in there that e.g. allowed handing a firearm to "a trustworthy person" without a permit for permanent storage at their place, or that allowed keeping a loaded firearm in your bedside drawer 24/7 since after all you were allowed to "carry" on your private property. The overhaul was due to the Red-Green majority that was elected after Kohl was ousted in 1998, and cut down on a lot of that. The 2003 change was the first real update to weapons laws since the introduction of a federal weapons law in 1976.

                  Due to that especially around 2009-2012 (after the first "5-year revisit" of permits after the 2003 law change...) a lot of people gave up their privately owned guns and permits. Since 2009 in Bavaria the number of pemits has gone down by 40% and the number of guns by 20%.

                  Sports clubs switched to a different model as a reaction, now usually offering their members to shoot guns from the club's safely kept and centrally registered selection instead of bringing private guns to the range. Due to that typically only about one in six members of a shooting club still has a gun permit based on sports shooting. From the government side you now need to prove your sports requirement (i.e. train with your private gun at the range at a certified club) in order to keep it - for every single gun -, which cut down on the number of people who owned a whole cabinet full of rifles for private sports use on a single permit.

                  For the clubs their new "business model" also has benefits with regard to knowing exactly what people shoot at their range (safety, damages, insurance, "who" shoots that gun etc). Before that they could at best restrict usage along the lines of "small caliber only on this range" etc.

                  P.S.: The city i live in has about one shooting club per 11,000 people, and i consider that a lot. Bavaria has one per 3,000 people. And Bavaria doesn't even have the highest gun density in Germany, that'd be Rhineland-Palatinate (i.e. the state where Kaiserslautern, Ramstein Airbase etc is).
                  Last edited by kato; 30 May 24,, 01:41.

                  Comment


                  • Someone today attacked a campaign stand of extremist group "Citizen Movement Pax Europa" in Mannheim in Baden-Württemberg state today, using a knife to injure seven people, mostly members and employees of the group as well as one police officer before being shot and injured by another officer himself.

                    The group itself is under domestic intelligence observation in various states (mostly their main group in Bavaria) and is primarily focused on an anti-islam stance of the really extreme kind, having called in the past for Chinese-style "reeducation camps" for muslims. The injured include Michael Stürzenberger, one of the leaders of the group, who was featured by name in the domestic intelligence report for Bavaria every year between 2013 and 2022 and is considered a core figure of anti-islamism in Bavaria. The campaign stand was located on the Market Square in Mannheim in what's considered "Little Istanbul". Seeking open confrontation with muslims, often filmed with heavy editing, is part of Stürzenberger's modus operandi during these campaigns.

                    "Whether the attack had a political motive" is currently being investigated by police.

                    The attack was coincidentally live-streamed on Youtube by the Pax Europa group, showing that the attacker focused on Stürzenberger and then started stabbing towards others as they were attacking him.

                    See also https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckmm4lgm0l4o (One of the rare english-language articles _without_ the video. You can find that on e.g. Fox News if you want to.)
                    Last edited by kato; 31 May 24,, 15:46.

                    Comment


                    • And Bavaria doesn't even have the highest gun density in Germany, that'd be Rhineland-Palatinate (i.e. the state where Kaiserslautern, Ramstein Airbase etc is).

                      Again my experience is dated but to hear of larger ownership in the Rhineland-Palatinate being higher in ownership than Bayern surprises me. Do you see any reason for that? Is it thge impacts of the laws you mentioned? Thanks
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                        Is it the impacts of the laws you mentioned?
                        Not at all - Rhineland-Palatinate (and to a lesser extent neighboring Saarland) having the highest gun ownership numbers relative to population was already the case back in the 80s.

                        The reasons are largely unknown. Local officials sometimes point out that Rhineland-Palatinate supposedly has a lot of hunters since much of it is small villages in forests. But that's actually not the case relative to the population numbers, in fact they have less registered hunters than the rest of Germany.

                        Politically Rhineland-Palatinate tends to be very much opposed to restricting gun ownership (often voting against other states in the senate on laws regarding it), and is in my opinion somewhat laissez-faire in enforcement of existing laws.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by kato View Post
                          Not at all - Rhineland-Palatinate (and to a lesser extent neighboring Saarland) having the highest gun ownership numbers relative to population was already the case back in the 80s.

                          The reasons are largely unknown. Local officials sometimes point out that Rhineland-Palatinate supposedly has a lot of hunters since much of it is small villages in forests. But that's actually not the case relative to the population numbers, in fact they have less registered hunters than the rest of Germany.

                          Politically Rhineland-Palatinate tends to be very much opposed to restricting gun ownership (often voting against other states in the senate on laws regarding it), and is in my opinion somewhat laissez-faire in enforcement of existing laws.
                          Well...there you go. I always believed that to be true of Bayern & Schwabia.

                          You continually educate me on my misconceptions!
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

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                          • Third trial (in Munich) started today with 8 people charged there.

                            One of the accused in this trial is apparently also a card-carrying member of the "Association of Knight's Cross Recipients", a fairly controversial revanchist organization founded in the 50s to whom any contact is officially banned for Bundeswehr soldiers since 1999. Hitler's successor Karl Dönitz was a honorary member of the organization to the point where they provided the honor guard at his burial in 1981.

                            One other accused is a member of biker gang "Gremium MC", which has included other neonazi terrorists convicted in recent years.

                            In total the investigation files fill 400,000 pages. Reading out the specific charges in Munich took 3 hours.

                            Also, one of the defense attorneys previously defended NSU terrorist Beate Zschäpe.

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                            • Geebus! This bears watching!
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

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