Fcuking nightmare waiting to happen
Put 1.2 billin peoples biometrics online. If they get compromised. There is no legal remedy. We got a supreme court judgement on privacy but have yet to get to the bottom of it
But the govt is hell bent on digital India. Worst part its not just this govt, any govt that comes to office wants to track people. The tools for setting up a surveillance state are falling into place. The govt doesn't have to do it. Every entity that requires this ID can . The govt can say but its not us and they're off the hook
So when i read what these kids did to fool the system i salute them
http://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai...Dml2DakeI.html
It used to be about disbursing welfare. Pay taxes, not on welfare then no need for this shit, right ? wrong the fcukers made it mandatory for everyone.
Even the Chinese don't have something this frickin' invasive
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Originally posted by Double Edge View PostWhy should they be watching me unless i'm a criminal. No, i think they have no right to watch over me whatsoever otherwise.
The ill-treatment & chaos you mention isn't going to go away if this system is introduced, quite the contrary in fact. It will be much easier to target ppl by anyone with access to a database that has the info.
And we want to actually 'automate' it ?
:D
Just joking ....
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Originally posted by ace009 View PostOn the other hand, I would rather have a more streamlined system in India than the current chaos and lack of process.
Course govt says we have high growth rates right now, any changes might jeopardise that. It would take some serious nerve to push it forward. The changes of law required etc. Its a monumental task.
We had to go bankrupt to introduce reforms v1.0, what will it take to introduce v2.0. Reforms that will actually reach the lower classes and not stop at the middle classes & higher ups.
Originally posted by ace009 View PostFor the government having too much info debate, I feel the government already has too much info about me at any time - this UID is the last few nails in the coffin. On that note, I trust the government slightly more than a private company. Simply because, I can vote the government out, but since I am not a majority shareholder in any of the big companies (who hold my personal info), I can do jack to them.
Originally posted by ace009 View PostOn the chaos in Indian sytems- currently there are a number of "identity" documents in India - the Photo-Id are, Passport (less than 1% people have them), Drivers license (a little over 2% people have that), Voters Id (about 67% people have those, but the pict quality is horrible), PAN (about 15% people, same problem with pict quality) and military/ Govt employee ID (goes without saying, only military or civ govt employees have them).
The non-Photo ID (for what THEY are worth) - PDS/ Ration Card (nowadays probably called BPL card), citizenship certification given by local govt representative (not worth the paper they are printed on, since you can get as many as you want simply by bribing the govt official).
So, There are about 8 of these ID documents, supposed to be all "proof" of your identity, yet when someone has to go open a bank account or do any official work, they need to produce a specific one, or a combination of them at times multiple ones for verification. As a result, corruption is rampant, poor people are exploited and common man dreads the experience of going through ANY official process - and I should know - I have taken my share of shit and then some.
This line gets touted a lot but it aint going to make that govt functionary more efficient if you only need to provide one form of ID rather than more. I've dealt with numerous govt ppl, i've found patience and courtesy got me places. Yes, things move slowly but thats the case with govts everywhere. A lack of ID isn't the bottleneck its made out it be, its the excessive, unnecessarily convoluted systems, still in place from a much more restrictive bygone era. An era that championed as its main ethos that the more ppl employed by govt the better. The more ppl that looked at a procedure or required to sign off, the better. Small wonder things take so long here. You want change, you want things to move faster, then start streamlining govt, not the citizens.
How many political parties out there talk about streamlining govt ? not a single one !
It really surprises me how many ppl do not GET this simple fact :)
Originally posted by ace009 View PostSo, what do I think of the UID? I think it is a good idea if the government can put in strict rules and regulations and ensure appropriate safeguards to the data. And by appropriate safeguards I mean the state of the art encryption and data management processes, which are evaluated and updated annualy. The cost however high, should be more than enough offset by the benefits.
No data is absolutely safe. But someone who can go into the trouble of hacking into a government database overriding multiple safeguards - probably have enough resources anyway to gather the info about me.
No need to break in at all when you can get an insider to do it, for not too much ;)
Originally posted by ace009 View PostAs for all the talk about BIG BROTHER watching - in India, if they want to watch you, there is precious little you can do about it. And for me, I would rather have the order and system than to see my countrymen wallow in the chaos and systemic ill-treatment they face.
The ill-treatment & chaos you mention isn't going to go away if this system is introduced, quite the contrary in fact. It will be much easier to target ppl by anyone with access to a database that has the info.
And we want to actually 'automate' it ?Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Jul 11,, 19:27.
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I probably belong to both sides of this debate. On the one hand I would hate to see anyone, be that a government official or a private company with too much information about me - or too much power over me. On the other hand, I would rather have a more streamlined system in India than the current chaos and lack of process.
For the government having too much info debate, I feel the government already has too much info about me at any time - this UID is the last few nails in the coffin. On that note, I trust the government slightly more than a private company. Simply because, I can vote the government out, but since I am not a majority shareholder in any of the big companies (who hold my personal info), I can do jack to them.
On the chaos in Indian sytems- currently there are a number of "identity" documents in India - the Photo-Id are, Passport (less than 1% people have them), Drivers license (a little over 2% people have that), Voters Id (about 67% people have those, but the pict quality is horrible), PAN (about 15% people, same problem with pict quality) and military/ Govt employee ID (goes without saying, only military or civ govt employees have them).
The non-Photo ID (for what THEY are worth) - PDS/ Ration Card (nowadays probably called BPL card), citizenship certification given by local govt representative (not worth the paper they are printed on, since you can get as many as you want simply by bribing the govt official).
So, There are about 8 of these ID documents, supposed to be all "proof" of your identity, yet when someone has to go open a bank account or do any official work, they need to produce a specific one, or a combination of them at times multiple ones for verification. As a result, corruption is rampant, poor people are exploited and common man dreads the experience of going through ANY official process - and I should know - I have taken my share of shit and then some.
So, what do I think of the UID? I think it is a good idea if the government can put in strict rules and regulations and ensure appropriate safeguards to the data. And by appropriate safeguards I mean the state of the art encryption and data management processes, which are evaluated and updated annualy. The cost however high, should be more than enough offset by the benefits.
No data is absolutely safe. But someone who can go into the trouble of hacking into a government database overriding multiple safeguards - probably have enough resources anyway to gather the info about me.
As for all the talk about BIG BROTHER watching - in India, if they want to watch you, there is precious little you can do about it. And for me, I would rather have the order and system than to see my countrymen wallow in the chaos and systemic ill-treatment they face.
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National ID cards are indeed a terrible idea. Obviously for services there has to be some way to give citizens an individual imprint (Social Security No. in the US, PPS here) but a card that just lists the citizen proactively is useful only for tracking and will not end well (nor is it designed to - it's usually governments getting authoritarian and wanting to collect excess data about people lives and enhance efficiency at violating civil liberties, nothing more). Citizenship is the only ID one needs.
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Originally posted by Wayfarer View PostIndia doesn't have any strong Libertarian/pro-free-market/anti-statist movement do they?
Ppl here are distrustful of politicians but are not necessarily against more govt in their lives. The more the benefits line is touted the more they see such a system as benign and indeed beneficial. The claims of increased efficiency are just assertions that do not stand up to scrutiny. Its pretty much a shallow one sided narrative with hardly any mention of the negatives or their extent and future consequences.
Originally posted by Laser View PostAm I correct in understanding that the Govt. wants to institute a tax, or otherwise collect 11 billion from the population, in order to fund the new UID? And then, thru the backdoor, they will probably sell the info to Business, for some amount? Sounds like a really good program for everyone, EXCEPT the population.
For the record the chairman of this project expects it to cost ~$3 billion. But the LSE report using the British govt estimates at the time showed them to be grossly understated. It isn't unreasonable to assume the same would not be the case in India either.Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Jul 11,, 15:18.
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Am I correct in understanding that the Govt. wants to institute a tax, or otherwise collect 11 billion from the population, in order to fund the new UID? And then, thru the backdoor, they will probably sell the info to Business, for some amount? Sounds like a really good program for everyone, EXCEPT the population.
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India doesn't have any strong Libertarian/pro-free-market/anti-statist movement do they?
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Originally posted by Laser View PostDon't forget the obvious reason for the Govt. to go to all the expense of operating a new identity card. So they can gather information on spending habits? This info is very valuable to sell to marketing companies.
Govt wants it so it has better control over ppl. Atm they use benign reasons like it helps to cut down loss when delivering benefits. But what about the govt 10 adminstrations from now or more. There is no guarantee at all once a system like this is in place.
Originally posted by Laser View PostDo you really trust the Govt. to protect your privacy? And once your personal/private info is released, even if by accident, it can never be recalled. Just a thought.
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Don't forget the obvious reason for the Govt. to go to all the expense of operating a new identity card. So they can gather information on spending habits? This info is very valuable to sell to marketing companies. Do you really trust the Govt. to protect your privacy? And once your personal/private info is released, even if by accident, it can never be recalled. Just a thought.
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Originally posted by Doktor View PostLet me ask you some questions:
What information are stored on your current personal ID card? I mean beside the obvious - picture, DoB and address?
Originally posted by Doktor View PostHow does your doctor determines it is really you?
Originally posted by Doktor View PostHow does your tax bureau determines it is you?
Originally posted by Doktor View PostHow does the bank determine if to give you a credit or not?
Originally posted by Doktor View PostHow you prove you are the owner of some property?
Originally posted by Doktor View PostWhat happens with minors? How the state determines they are your kids?
Originally posted by Doktor View PostHow do you get copy of your student files?
Originally posted by Doktor View PostTo be clear, I am not advocating you should have this system, just curious how these things are solved without one?Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Jul 11,, 01:04.
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I was busy these days reading about countries without UID (abbrev for the sake of this thread)
Let me ask you some questions:
What information are stored on your current personal ID card? I mean beside the obvious - picture, DoB and address?
How does your doctor determines it is really you?
How does your tax bureau determines it is you?
How does the bank determine if to give you a credit or not?
How you prove you are the owner of some property?
What happens with minors? How the state determines they are your kids?
How do you get copy of your student files?
I have a lot more hows, but these are enough for a start.
To be clear, I am not advocating you should have this system, just curious how these things are solved without one?
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Originally posted by indus creed View PostBiometrics are still electronically stored in bits and bytes. They are just complicated passwords and the password database will be in govts(read, corrupt bureaucrat's) hand. Even if it were secure with strong cryptography, imagine the concentration of power in the hands of indian bureaucrat and those who are remote controlling him.
It's just creeping statism or more govt in our lives. If not with the first govt under this system then certainly by the next ten. This project is just big money making exercise for the players involved, at our expense initially financially and ultimately politically.
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Originally posted by Double Edge View PostSure ?
Will not be difficult to hack this system and create false identities. The biometrics cannot be faked, fingerprints & iris scans are unique. All that is required is a fake name & address and to make sure that info resides in the NPR by an insider. That's it :)
Already we're having a soul searching moments with all the scams over the last couple of years. A national population register will be the ultimate enabler for corrupt regimes. Not this party or that party but every party.Last edited by indus creed; 21 Jul 11,, 17:38.
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Originally posted by Tronic View PostThat has been a valid point from the start. BioEnable has taken up the project for biometrics for the Aadhar, and they claim they do have and use the best technologies in regards to fingerprint quality.
India's ID card scheme – drowning in a sea of false positives | Dematerialised | March 2011
How UIDAI goofed up pilot test results to press forward with UID scheme | money life magazine | March 18, 2011
Originally posted by Tronic View PostApart from that, the Aadhar is still yet one step up than any of the other systems for ID in place in India right now. Aadhar will only reduce identity theft in India, not increase it.
Already we're having a soul searching moments with all the scams over the last couple of years. A national population register will be the ultimate enabler for corrupt regimes. Not this party or that party but every party.Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Jul 11,, 00:53.
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