Statquo and OOE Club: Canadian Politics

[Officer of Engineers]

Depends on the part of the country. Newfoundland (especially the Rock) and the Maritimes benefit big time by military presence. A large of part of their economic and personal safety relies on military enforcement of the EEZ and Search-And-Rescue. Plus, any ship building/maintenance means jobs.

Ontario and Quebec, you have a minority supporting the military. They worry more about the Auto Pact's 1000s of cars than the 100 tanks. We pay lip service to duty and honour, especially around REMEMBRANCE DAY but you get push back when the CF ain't pushing the unarmed peacekeeper narrative. The most opposition to the Afghanistan Combat Missions came from the Greater Toronto Area

Parries Canada WANT a powerful military mainly because the nature of the population. They're less urbanized than Central Canada and even those who are urbanized learned to fend for themselves. There's really no one else but yourself to turn to when it's -30C. You can't ask someone else to make it warm for you. You have to dress warm yourself and you need to have a storage of food for those days you can't get to the supermarket and there will be those days. Thus, they understand being prepared to meet the threat head on.

British Columbia can't wrap her head around Europe centric defence policies. They like the idea of a strong military but believes we're spending it wrong and they don't want to throw good money after bad. They like the idea of confronting China but don't understand why we need tanks to take on Maritime China.

[Albany Rifles]

Thanks, Colonel

Excellent breakdown

[Officer of Engineers]

Okay...we are a different subgroup of our populations.

Cynics?

What is the general attitude of the Canadian populace towards rearming? They are the ones who will need to pay for it.

In General, it is NATO Allies who determine Canadian Defence Spending, not domestic pressure. You don't want American fighters patrolling Canadian skies? You better have what the US wants! You don't want American subs in Canada's North, you better have your own. You want to beg for tanks or ships to evac Canadians? Tough shit, you don't get any.

In short, NATO has always told Canada that if you want to play in the big boys league, you have to pay the big boys price. That above all else is what drives Canadian defence spending, the desire to satisfy Canadians that they're in the Big Boys league.

[statquo]

Colonel, can you explain why our procurement process is a joke? Why the hell does it take so long??

[Officer of Engineers]

Colonel, can you explain why our procurement process is a joke? Why the hell does it take so long??

Where do I begin? Part of the process was designed to be long. Being a small military, we cannot afford to make big mistakes. Berets for example. Simple right? How can you go wrong? Did you account for women's hair or Sikhs? So, these questions must be taken into account before you even consider what to buy. Some like Sikhs must be issued exceptions in the QR&O.

Bureaucracy aside when most are understandable. Do your research before you put in your order and takes time. The next step is to make sure you buy Canadian. The most famous case if the Canadian Rifle program. The C7 costs $10K a copy (for various reasons, least of all barrel life of million rounds) but the Chinese were offering a AK47 clone chambered at 5.56 NATO at $75 a copy. I don't care how you write the RFP, there 's no way a $10K rifle will beat price per point against a $75 rifle. The only way we've made sure the Chinese AK47 lost was that the rifle must be manufactured in Canada. With that stipulation, the Chinese could not compete.

Ok, you've decided to buy Canadian. Which Canadians? Quebec, Ontario, Maritimes, Parries, or BC? Often hints are dropped. In the case of the F35, BOMBADIER must be involved.

Supposed you gone through all that, DND jumped through hoops looking at manufacturing, made sure everybody got a piece of the pie. Somebody somewhere cries foul (BOEING Canada - F-18 SUPERHORNET) saying that they didn't get a chance to compete with a plane at half the cost and twice the life). Never mind anything else, the half price issue will grab the Opposition's attention. If nothing else, it does headaches for DND. DND has to explain why the SUPERBUG is not in contention and if the Opposition gets elected, out the door goes the F-35.

In short, at any point during the procurement process, politics can and does throw a wrench into what's already a lengthy process.

[Albany Rifles]

Colonel we have many of the same issues here. One of the ways the F-35 was kept going through its terrible mismanagement days was to spread production out across so many Congressional districts that cutting it became a political poison pill. In this case it turned to be a good idea to give LockMart time to work out the issues for the most part.

But it doesn't make sense on many programs. I mean you can't have frigates built in North Dakota.

[Monash]

They did as did every NATO country, Australia, Sweden, and the Finns.

We catered the after action barbecues. They're kind of our forte!

[Albany Rifles]

We catered the after action barbecues. They're kind of our forte!

Having attended BBQs hosted by 3RCR, PPCLI & RCHA this is spot on!

[Monash]

Never underestimate the force amplification potential of a good barbecue!

[Firestorm]

The most famous case if the Canadian Rifle program. The C7 costs $10K a copy (for various reasons, least of all barrel life of million rounds) but the Chinese were offering a AK47 clone chambered at 5.56 NATO at $75 a copy. I don't care how you write the RFP, there 's no way a $10K rifle will beat price per point against a $75 rifle. The only way we've made sure the Chinese AK47 lost was that the rifle must be manufactured in Canada. With that stipulation, the Chinese could not compete.

Colonel this blows my mind. Ten thousand dollars for a single rifle? It is just an AR-15 isn't it? Also, if the million round barrel life was a requirement specified by the Canadian military then the Chinese AK clone would fail the technical evaluation wouldn't it?

[Officer of Engineers]

Ten thousand dollars for a single rifle?

Includes 4x scope, maintain zero under combat conditions, combat kit, forward firing handle, and few other things I can't recall but the main points are the battle rugginess.

It is just an AR-15 isn't it?

M16

TAlso, if the million round barrel life was a requirement specified by the Canadian military then the Chinese AK clone would fail the technical evaluation wouldn't it?

It's price per point. I don't know how many points barrel life and combat ruggedness gets but price per point means lowest bid.

[Albany Rifles]

Includes 4x scope, maintain zero under combat conditions, combat kit, forward firing handle, and few other things I can't recall but the main points are the battle rugginess.

M16

It's price per point. I don't know how many points barrel life and combat ruggedness gets but price per point means lowest bid.

Also, that is a life cycle cost so it figures in all projected maintenance and upgrades as needed.

[statquo]

Canadian military to destroy 11,000 Second World War-era pistols

The move comes as the Canadian Forces confirmed it has received the final deliveries of a new 9-mm pistol as part of a $19.4-million project.

The Canadian military plans to destroy 11,000 of its Second World War-era pistols by the end of this year.

The move comes as the Canadian Forces confirmed it has received the final deliveries of a new 9-mm pistol as part of a $19.4-million project.

The military purchased the Sig Sauer P320, which is being distributed to units. It replaces the Browning Hi-Power pistol that has been used by the Canadian Forces for decades.

National Defence spokesperson Cheryl Forrest said all military units would send their Browning handguns to Canadian Forces supply depots in Quebec and Alberta for disposal.

“The pistols have not yet been destroyed,” she said in an email. “We anticipate the pistols will be disposed of by the end of 2024.”

Forrest said approximately 150 Browning Hi-Power handguns would be kept for museums, but at this point none had been distributed to those organizations.

In addition, the Canadian Army is determining if a small amount of the Brownings should be kept for special purposes or specific training, she added.

“The Canadian Army keeps a small stock of older small arms and small arms in service in other countries to assist with training for emergency situations and for recognition,” Forrest said. “The Browning may also retain some training value as a simulation/training tool.”

But no final decision on that has been made, she added.

More than a million Browning Hi-Power pistols were manufactured since the Second World War and the gun has been used by dozens of militaries and police forces.

The Canadian Forces previously removed another group of older weapons from its inventory when it provided modern rifles to the Canadian Rangers. That group had been using Lee Enfield rifles also from the Second World War era.

Around 9,500 Lee Enfields were transferred to military cadets, mostly as non-functional rifles, for use in drills or training. Approximately 5,000 of the rifles were gifted to serving Canadian Rangers.

Another 50 rifles were offered to museums affiliated with the Canadian Forces or military units as display artifacts, National Defence said.

After that, around 1,500 Lee Enfields remained and they were destroyed as the military ruled out sale of the surplus rifles to the general public.

The Canadian Forces announced it had received the final deliveries of the new P320s on March 6. The delivery involved 16,500 of what are being called C22 pistols. Those are being used by the army, navy and air force.

Another 3,200 new pistols, to be called the C24, were sent to military police units.

The federal government announced the awarding of the Sig Sauer P320 contract in October 2022. It was awarded to M.D. Charlton Co. Ltd. of Victoria, B.C.

The Sig Sauer P320 is in use with multiple militaries around the world including Denmark, France, and the United States. The Pentagon selected the P320 in 2017 and Sig Sauer is providing the U.S. military with 420,000 of those guns.

The Canadian military had been trying for years to replace its Browning Hi-Power pistols as it was running out of parts for the weapons.
The acquisition project was stalled for years after small arms firms rejected in 2011 the federal government requirement that the new guns be built at Colt Canada in Kitchener, Ont. In addition, the companies balked at a stipulation that they had to turn over proprietary firearms information to Colt, a firm some saw as a competitor.

[Monash]

Canadian military to destroy 11,000 Second World War-era pistols

Approximately 5,000 of the rifles were gifted to serving Canadian Rangers.

Out of curiosity why are the Rangers restricted to using bolt action rifles if they're officially a military unit?

[Officer of Engineers]

Out of curiosity why are the Rangers restricted to using bolt action rifles if they're officially a military unit?

Reliability and dependability. You want a rifle that will continue to function in extreme cold with a minimum of maintenance and you want a round that will drop a polar bear at distance.