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  • #16
    Originally posted by ironman420
    Pentecostal/Charismatics
    No way!!!

    Are you telling me that only
    2% of the Americans support
    people like Pat Robertson?

    That cant be true. These guys
    have a huge following in America.

    They are Bush's main supporters.
    The conservative christians.
    They got him in office, everyone
    knows it. How could that have been
    if only 2% of the Americans are into
    Pat Robertson and those kinds of people?

    Maybe evelangical are a very small minority,
    but there is a huge conservative christian vote.
    The same people who want the "greater Israel"
    because they think they need that for Jesus
    to come back and kill all the Jews or whatever.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by TNP
      No way!!!

      Are you telling me that only
      2% of the Americans support
      people like Pat Robertson?

      That cant be true. These guys
      have a huge following in America.

      They are Bush's main supporters.
      The conservative christians.
      They got him in office, everyone
      knows it. How could that have been
      if only 2% of the Americans are into
      Pat Robertson and those kinds of people?

      Maybe evelangical are a very small minority,
      but there is a huge conservative christian vote.
      The same people who want the "greater Israel"
      because they think they need that for Jesus
      to come back and kill all the Jews or whatever.
      Well, there are the Pentecostals and Charismatics are the true evangelicals. Various Protestant demoninations have evangelicals in their ranks, such as the Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. And no, the Evangelical Lutheran Church is not evangelical in the charismatic sense. That's just part of their name.

      Within each Protestant denomination there are the mainstream and the evangelicals. Of all the Protestants in the United States, perhaps 15-20% are evangelicals, comprising 7-10% of the US population.

      Conservative Christians are not necessarily evangelicals by any means. There are conservative Catholics and Orthodox in the US, doesn't make them evangelical, and the same for Protestant churches.

      The evangelicals are the loudest group, they make themselves heard and they are political, exaggerating their true size and power in proportion to their percentage of the population.
      "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

      Comment


      • #18
        Yes. USA and other western nations are responsible for this University of Holy War. We all should be ashamed of ourselves for condemning Pakistan. Coz Pakistanis dont like them, they despise them, they hate them. But they just give them land and permitted people to learn in there, well kinda moral support.
        A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

        Comment


        • #19
          Madrassas?
          Or Mad Rushers? In a mad rush to change the world?

          No. they are peaceful folks.

          The Evangalists to the best of my knowledge do not use violence to change the world to their belief and faith. Or do they?

          The Christains emaphasise on 'Love' and not 'Wage War on kaffirs [infidels]' Or do they? What is the opinion of the madrassa trained?


          "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

          I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

          HAKUNA MATATA

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by TNP
            Do you know what evelangicals believe?
            Do you have any idea how crazy their
            version of faith is? If you think they are
            any less crazy then those mullahs, then you
            would be wrong.
            The evangelicals are not the craziest religious group we have. We have cults in the US that are quite willing to use violence to attain whatever loopy goals they have. Please understand that I am not blaming Pakistan for having religious fruitcakes. All nations have them. But Pakistan should not allow them to brainwash young students year after year. Pakistan cannot wipe out all extremists nor should it try to interfere too much with freedom of religion. But it should not let its educational system be wholly hijacked. All schools in the US must qualify and meet academic standards. And I don't believe the nuns at my school would have been employed for very long if they urged us young Catholics to embark on a crusade to violently take all of the Holy land back.


            Correction, these schools exist in the USofA aswell.
            You think America is free of these lunatics?
            The US is not free of lunatics, but we do not have schools that preach violence as a way of life.

            Hell, where did the 9/11 hijackers study?
            Pakistan... or was it Germany? (guess which one)
            Germany. But the university they attended in Germany did not train them to be dipsticks. They earned that path on their own. Just because the 9-11 hijackers are not products of the masadras does not mean that they are not a threat that should be ignored.

            So dont lecture us about taking action.
            It is for the good of Pakistan that Pakistan should take action. The students of these schools don't have the financial means to come over to the US and cause us trouble. No, they stay in Pakistan - adding to Pakistan's unemployment, taking part in guerrilla attacks in nearby conflicts, and blowing up Mosques and Churches of those whose faith they do not agree with.

            Comment


            • #21
              Nor does the fact that if it wasn't for American
              support of the Saudis, we wouldnt be in this
              position in the first place.
              Appeasment of Militant Islam during the Iranian revolution up to now is what caused us to be in this position. When they took over our embasy, what did we do, we made a failed rescue. We should have declared all out war against Iran and this would have never happened because the phillosophy would have never spread.

              Comment


              • #22
                Ironman, BC., and Praxus

                (first of all, thanks for your sane remarks,
                unlike those of some others with their own
                agendas)

                Let me tell you guys why universities like
                this exist within Pakistan. After the 60's
                all our progress and our economy was crippled.
                We needed resources like oil
                and we needed them badly. So the governments
                like those of Bhutto and Zia, approached the Saudis
                on a different level. We need oil, but we didnt have
                much money. So we made a deal with the devil in
                a sense. Their Wahabis got free access into
                Pakistan in return for extremely cheap oil.

                That is why, it was a move for our survival. And that
                is why you see Saudi Arabia today decreasing its
                oil assistance to Pakistan, not just because Pakistan
                is now getting back on its feet and can buy the oil,
                but now we are indeed taking action against these
                places.

                Thats the reason why. But even still, only 10% of
                our soceity got infected by this. Look at Saudi Arabia
                on the other hand, 90% of their soceity, probably
                more is already infected.

                You are pointing the finger at Pakistan, do you people
                realize the biggest problem for you is Saudi Arabia?
                And do you realize that same problem is our problem?

                the Saudis not only have the recruits, but unlike Pakistan
                they can actually fund them through rich Saudi millionaires
                like Osama. And those same idiots are now threatening
                Pakistan.

                Tell me, why is it that, that Al Zawari guy in his latest
                weekend TV commercial, has asked for the overthrow
                of Musharraf? You think that if we werent playing our
                part that they would say something like that?
                The reason they want Musharraf out is because we
                are doing what we can.

                On the other hand, the US is not.
                I mean even the American people are
                tired of the protection that your govt.
                gives to Saudi Arabia. It will not even
                release that report which cites Saudi
                involvement in 9/11.

                So dont lecture us, cuz we are a part of the soloution.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Pakistan is lead by a Government were it's powers are not given to it by the people nor is the Governments purpose to protect your rights. It is a Military Dictatorship, a country who's idealogy is so different then ours can not be the solution.

                  On the other hand, the US is not.
                  I mean even the American people are
                  tired of the protection that your govt.
                  gives to Saudi Arabia. It will not even
                  release that report which cites Saudi
                  involvement in 9/11.
                  I agree we should stop support, there is no way around buying their oil though. If we don't then someone else will and resell it to the United States.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Pakistan is lead by a Government were it's powers are not given to it by the people nor is the Governments purpose to protect your rights. It is a Military Dictatorship, a country who's idealogy is so different then ours can not be the solution.
                    Fine forget it then.
                    If thats your version of reality.
                    We couldn't care less what you think anyway.

                    And by the way, America isn't
                    that far from being a dictatorship either.
                    At least ours is a official dictatorship.

                    You think the American government consults
                    its population before it signs treaties
                    such as NAFTA and GATT which increase
                    unemployment, decrease wages, and create
                    a whole new branch of social problems for
                    Americans?

                    And again, dont lecture us about right & wrong.
                    It wasn't that far back when your soldiers were
                    shooting student protestors on school campuses,
                    killing blacks just for being black, leading coups
                    against democratically elected governments and
                    putting an entire race pf people (Japanese) in
                    concentration camps.

                    America isn't exactly a nation of saints, nor
                    are your leaders special agents of God.
                    You have enough skeletons in your closet.

                    "People who live in glass houses,
                    shouldn't throw stones."
                    Last edited by TNP; 12 Oct 03,, 01:20.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      p.s. One more thing,
                      about this comment of yours:

                      I agree we should stop support, there is no way around buying their oil though. If we don't then someone else will and resell it to the United States.
                      America only gets 25% of its oil from the Middle East.
                      Most of its oil comes from South America, where
                      it has been supporting dictorial regimes for decades,
                      overthrowing democratically elected governments.

                      America doesnt need Saudi Oil.
                      The one reason it wants it is because
                      that gives it leverage over other countries
                      who need that oil.

                      In short:
                      It isn't doing it to protect its own interests.
                      It wants control over others.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        America only gets 25% of its oil from the Middle East.
                        Most of its oil comes from South America, where
                        it has been supporting dictorial regimes for decades,
                        overthrowing democratically elected governments.

                        America doesnt need Saudi Oil.
                        The one reason it wants it is because
                        that gives it leverage over other countries
                        who need that oil.
                        Most of our oil comes from Mexico, Canada, and the United States. Accounting for about 70% of our oil. The rest comes Venezaula and the Middle East.

                        Adolf Hitler was democraticly elected does that mean he had a right to rule?

                        To any rational person "Democraticly Elected" means absolutley nothing in this context.

                        Give me an example of a "Democraticly Elected" government that the United States suported the overthrow of that was not communist or some other form of dictatorship.

                        And by the way, America isn't
                        that far from being a dictatorship either.
                        At least ours is a official dictatorship.

                        You think the American government consults
                        its population before it signs treaties
                        such as NAFTA and GATT which increase
                        unemployment, decrease wages, and create
                        a whole new branch of social problems for
                        Americans?
                        Nor should it consult us. Free trade allows individuals from different countries to initiate volunteery trade with each other.

                        Free Trade does not cause people to lose jobs or decrease wages. In fact it does quite the opisite.

                        Say China can produce a shirt for 5$ that would cost us 10$ to make. Now say a store in New York buys that shirt. they can now charge 10$ and make a 100% profit were it would cost 20$ to make 100% profit with the one made in the US. Obviously the market would probley not except these high prices so they would have to lower prices thus reducing profit.


                        Read this by Ludwig Von Mises:
                        http://www.mises.org/etexts/ecopol.asp



                        Last edited by Praxus; 12 Oct 03,, 01:53.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          As Ironman's signiture says:
                          "Judge Not, lest ye be judged"

                          I'll play this game with you, but
                          just remember who started it. Not me.




                          Originally posted by Praxus


                          Adolf Hitler was democraticly elected does that mean he had a right to rule?

                          According to your logic, Bush has no right to rule either.
                          As most humans see him as a danger to humanity.

                          But who are you to judge Hitler when American presidents
                          are no saints either? You think they were angels or something?

                          I just gave you a bunch of examples, but they were not
                          even 1% of the whole story. You have any idea how many
                          civillians your president Nixon killed in S.E.Asia? And this
                          wasn't even indirect killing that your country is usually
                          used to, you hire a dictator to do it for you. This was
                          direct B-52 bombs landing on the heads of Cambodia
                          and Vietnam.

                          You think just because you use bombs,
                          and call the civillian casualties "collateral damage", its any
                          better then what Hitler did?

                          Hitler thought the Jews had no right to live,
                          You think Nixon was thinking about the right of life
                          to all those people he killed?

                          Like Jesus said, let him who is sinless throw the first
                          stone. Are American leaders angels or saints that you
                          are lecturing the rest of the world about what to do
                          and what not to do?

                          The whole problem here is that you don't know your own
                          history. That is what making you so self-righteous.


                          Give me an example of a "Democraticly Elected" government that the United States suported the overthrow of that was not communist or some other form of dictatorship.
                          I'll give you an example from your own backyard.
                          Chile. Happy?

                          Remember General Pinochet? The Facist and brutal
                          dictator the US supported to overthrow the Chilian
                          president and murder him? And this is just one
                          example. But thats all you asked, you want more?

                          I think you should read the book Understanding Power
                          by Noam Chomsky. He will clear a lot of your questions up.
                          Last edited by TNP; 12 Oct 03,, 03:03.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Reply to the edited part of your post:


                            Nor should it consult us. Free trade allows individuals from different countries to initiate volunteery trade with each other.
                            I cant believe this guy just said this.
                            WoW... how democratic the spirit is in the American
                            population... :roll


                            Free Trade does not cause people to lose jobs or decrease wages. In fact it does quite the opisite.

                            LMAO :LOL

                            YEa.... right! :lol

                            Someone show this guy the statistics
                            of unemployment in the US. And how
                            it shot up right after NAFTA and GATT etc.

                            All the jobs ar going to sweatshops in third world countries.
                            And the wages are lowering in the US as well.

                            But why should I explain everything to you when you
                            have a whole list of scholars who have written books
                            about this available to you?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              'll give you an example from your own backyard.
                              Chile. Happy?

                              Remember General Pinochet? The Facist and brutal
                              dictator the US supported to overthrow the Chilian
                              president and murder him? And this is just one
                              example. But thats all you asked, you want more?

                              I think you should read the book Understanding Power
                              by Noam Chomsky. He will clear a lot of your questions up.
                              To bad President Allende was a Tyrant that repeadily violated their Constitution. Making your whole bitchy argument moot.

                              According to your logic, Bush has no right to rule either.
                              As most humans see him as a danger to humanity.

                              But who are you to judge Hitler when American presidents
                              are no saints either? You think they were angels or something?

                              I just gave you a bunch of examples, but they were not
                              even 1% of the whole story. You have any idea how many
                              civillians your president Nixon killed in S.E.Asia? And this
                              wasn't even indirect killing that your country is usually
                              used to, you hire a dictator to do it for you. This was
                              direct B-52 bombs landing on the heads of Cambodia
                              and Vietnam.


                              You think just because you use bombs,
                              and call the civillian casualties "collateral damage", its any
                              better then what Hitler did?

                              Hitler thought the Jews had no right to live,
                              You think Nixon was thinking about the right of life
                              to all those people he killed?

                              Like Jesus said, let him who is sinless throw the first
                              stone. Are American leaders angels or saints that you
                              are lecturing the rest of the world about what to do
                              and what not to do?

                              The whole problem here is that you don't know your own
                              history. That is what making you so self-righteous.
                              Is there a difference between puting a bullet through a murders head and it hitting a so called "inocent" that supported the murder and cooking Jews in ovens and systematicly killing them all when they did not initiate force or fraud against the people of Germany?

                              I cant believe this guy just said this.
                              WoW... how democratic the spirit is in the American
                              population...
                              You have the nerve to say that I do not know my history, but you know nothing about the American form of Government. Our founding fathers denounced Democracy as the most vile form of Government.

                              "Such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."
                              James Madison

                              "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."
                              Thomas Jefferson

                              "Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either [aristocracy or monarchy]. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide. "
                              John Adams

                              Read the Federalist Papers if you care to know about our form of Government.

                              Someone show this guy the statistics
                              of unemployment in the US. And how
                              it shot up right after NAFTA and GATT etc.

                              All the jobs ar going to sweatshops in third world countries.
                              And the wages are lowering in the US as well.

                              But why should I explain everything to you when you
                              have a whole list of scholars who have written books
                              about this available to you?
                              Here is a chart from the Beuro of Labour...



                              Acording to you there should be this rise in unemployment in 1994 when NAFTA was signed. But according to this chart it is going steadily down.

                              GATT was signed in 1947 and in 1947 Employment went up a little over 1 percent.
                              http://www.uspolicy.com/newusp/images/unemgrow.gif

                              Sweatshops are good for developing country because it brings tons of money into the Country, which helps their economy. On top of that we get things for cheap prices and can afford more, thus improving our life.

                              Last edited by Praxus; 12 Oct 03,, 02:42.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                To bad President Allende was a Tyrant that repeadily violated their Constitution. Making your whole bitchy argument moot.
                                And General Pinochet was a saint?

                                America had no right to judge the Chilian president
                                or to support General Pinochet in overthrowing him.
                                And who says Allende was a Tyrant? The US?

                                Is there a difference between puting a bullet through a murders head and it hitting a so called "inocent" that supported the murder and cooking Jews in ovens and systematicly killing them all when they did not initiate force or fraud against the people of Germany?
                                So you are supporting the bombing of
                                Combodia etc. which killed hundreds of
                                thousands of civillians?

                                Giving such a simplistic argument to support
                                those actions makes you the same as a Nazi you
                                realize that?

                                You have the nerve to say that I do not know my history, but you know nothing about the American form of Government. Our founding fathers denounced Democracy as the most vile form of Government.

                                "Such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."
                                James Madison

                                "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."
                                Thomas Jefferson

                                "Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either [aristocracy or monarchy]. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide. "
                                John Adams

                                Read the Federalist Papers if you care to know about our form of Government.
                                And what exactly is your point?


                                Acording to you there should be this rise in unemployment in 1994 when NAFTA was signed. But according to this chart it is going steadily down.

                                Read this:

                                "Many independent economists accept that the true level of unemployment in the United States of America is at least double the official figure. Even former Commissioner of Labor Statistics, Janet Norwood, after declining reappointment in 1991, began speaking out on the inadequacies of government data. Not only did she acknowledge that the unemployment numbers were misleading, but she also said, "I am very worried, extraordinarily concerned, about the polarization I see going on in our country."

                                "According to official numbers by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, as of January 1999, only 5,950,000 million Americans were unemployed. But the truth is that while the current official national unemployment rate in the United States stands at a low 4.3 percent, there are far more people than that who are either out of work, only able to find part-time work, employed at below poverty level wages or employed below their skill level. Official jobless figures are only the tip of the iceberg. In contrast to many European countries, the United States, in compiling jobless data, excluded persons without employment who had stopped looking for work."

                                "People working even as little as one day a week are categorized as "employed." About two million Americans, for example, are "on-call" workers who are called to work as needed -- sometimes for one day, sometimes for longer. Substitute teachers meet this definition. Such a methodology for determining the extent of unemployment in America is symptomatic, at the very least, of the lack of official concern regarding the problem. Many might say, with good reason, that it reflects an intent to mislead. "



                                And there is a lot more, just take a look around the
                                web and pick up some books which talk about this issue.

                                The website I got this from is:

                                http://www.sullivan-county.com/ident...employment.htm

                                Comment

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