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Porkulus, Part II?

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  • #31
    rj1,

    actually Keynesians like Krugman have come out and said all the domestic steps are approaching what is enough,
    not really...

    The Economic Narrative - NYTimes.com

    Infrastructure - NYTimes.com

    which made Krugman later come out and support tariffs.
    yeah, seriously, didn't think i'd see the day krugman would come out for tariffs. ugh. it was bad enough when he was talking about using the threat of them, but now...

    It doesn't matter whether it's implemented or not implemented if the fundamental flaws in the global financial system are not fixed - we'll still lose in the end regardless. We need to fix the greater problem, which is not a domestic one but is one with a global character.

    So how do we stop the Chinese, Japanese, and Germans from practicing mercantilism?
    the US would do better to work through the WTO mechanism. on a longer-term scale, as Chinese workers become wealthier they'll buy more stuff from us-- our product names still have better cachet than the Chinese domestic counterparts. ironically, american brands like GM are making a killing in china.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • #32
      Fri Sep 17, 12:15 pm ET
      Report: Los Angeles spent $70 million in stimulus funds to create 7.76 jobs
      By John Cook
      http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot...9ydGxvc2FuZw--
      By John Cook john Cook – Fri Sep 17, 12:15 pm ET

      A new piece of evidence has emerged in the debate over the effectiveness of President Obama's 2009 stimulus package, and it's not good for Democrats. According to two newly released audits performed by Los Angeles controller, L.A. spent enormous portions of the $594 million in stimulus funds it received on projects that created or saved just a handful of jobs. All told, the audits--available here and here [pdf]--examined $111 million in stimulus spending by the city's Department of Transportation and Department of Public Works, and found that the money went to projects that created or retained just 54 jobs. That works out to roughly $2 million per job.

      The $71 million that went to the Department of Public Works, which funded 15 road surfacing and similar projects, was projected to save or create 238 jobs. But according to the audit, the money created just 7.76 jobs--or slightly more than $10 million per new job--and saved 37.7 (the fractions are a result of calculating the number of jobs by hours worked). The Department of Transportation's $40 million created or retained just nine jobs, the audit found.

      In a press release accompanying the audits [pdf], L.A. Controller Wendy Greuel said the job numbers were underwhelming. "I'm disappointed that we've only created or retained 55 jobs after receiving $111 million in [stimulus] funds," Greuel said. "With our local unemployment rate over 12% we need to do a better job cutting the red tape and putting Angelenos back to work."

      The audit didn't find any misspent funds or waste. But the breakdown of how some of the money was spent seems to indicate the efficiency was not exactly the order of the day for project managers. The Department of Transportation, for instance, spent $9 million to install new LED lightbulbs in traffic lights at 1,800 intersections. Less the $228,000 in labor costs associated with the project, that's nearly $5,000 per location to change lightbulbs. Another project spent $4 million to install 65 new left turn arrows, averaging more than $61,500 per arrow.
      To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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      • #33
        Government? Inefficient at creating jobs? Surely you jest.
        "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by astralis View Post
          I personally thought it was nothing more than Krugman covering his ass. If it worked, "see, I was right". If it didn't work, "it's because they didn't do as much as I said for them to do".

          yeah, seriously, didn't think i'd see the day krugman would come out for tariffs. ugh. it was bad enough when he was talking about using the threat of them, but now...
          My company right now is doing good solely off of exporting to China of all things (long story short, they're just about the only people buying in the world and are doing it massively; the U.S., Canada, Western Europe, Japan, South Korea - all still sh*t). If tariffs came my company would suffer, but ignoring myself and looking at the rest of the country, what other solution do we do that we can twist China's arm? I think China's reasoning is perfectly clear here on what they're attempting to do (just as Japan's and Germany's was for the last generation), but that ends in tears for us if it continues. If we call them a currency manipulator, for the Chinese economy that's like shooting a nuke at Moscow circa 1970.

          It'd also put U.S. allies like Australia in a really bad position I'd think. Do they support us or do they support their mines' biggest customer? I think they'd support the mines and their workers.

          ...the US would do better to work through the WTO mechanism. on a longer-term scale, as Chinese workers become wealthier they'll buy more stuff from us-- our product names still have better cachet than the Chinese domestic counterparts.
          Personal anecdote. Had two engineers from China visit my factory earlier this year for about a month. They loved going to outlet malls to buy stuff on their weekends. When asked why, they said it was a lot cheaper here. So these were goods mostly made in China (clothing for example), shipped over the ocean to us, American labor and retailers taking their cut as middlemen, and the goods were a lot cheaper here than they were back home in spite of the tanker shipping and cheaper Chinese labor and retailers? Something doesn't add up. And these guys were from Shanghai, it's not like it was getting transported to the sticks. Are the Chinese attempting to kill potential inflation by discouraging domestic consumption via taxes or some over mechanism?


          I don't know what we do to fix the problem and not harm the U.S.
          Last edited by rj1; 18 Sep 10,, 01:46.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by rj1 View Post
            I personally thought it was nothing more than Krugman covering his ass. If it worked, "see, I was right". If it didn't work, "it's because they didn't do as much as I said for them to do".



            My company right now is doing good solely off of exporting to China of all things (long story short, they're just about the only people buying in the world and are doing it massively; the U.S., Canada, Western Europe, Japan, South Korea - all still sh*t). If tariffs came my company would suffer, but ignoring myself and looking at the rest of the country, what other solution do we do that we can twist China's arm? I think China's reasoning is perfectly clear here on what they're attempting to do (just as Japan's and Germany's was for the last generation), but that ends in tears for us if it continues. If we call them a currency manipulator, for the Chinese economy that's like shooting a nuke at Moscow circa 1970.

            It'd also put U.S. allies like Australia in a really bad position I'd think. Do they support us or do they support their mines' biggest customer? I think they'd support the mines and their workers.



            Personal anecdote. Had two engineers from China visit my factory earlier this year for about a month. They loved going to outlet malls to buy stuff on their weekends. When asked why, they said it was a lot cheaper here. So these were goods mostly made in China (clothing for example), shipped over the ocean to us, American labor and retailers taking their cut as middlemen, and the goods were a lot cheaper here than they were back home in spite of the tanker shipping and cheaper Chinese labor and retailers? Something doesn't add up. And these guys were from Shanghai, it's not like it was getting transported to the sticks. Are the Chinese attempting to kill potential inflation by discouraging domestic consumption via taxes or some over mechanism?


            I don't know what we do to fix the problem and not harm the U.S.
            sometimes the fix isnt painless. The current situation with China's currency maipulation giving them a 40 percent cost advantage is killing us over the long haul. Imagine how many internal customers you'd have if costs of chinese products were even 20 percent higher
            Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.
            ~Ronald Reagan

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            • #36
              Originally posted by gunnut View Post
              Government? Inefficient at creating jobs? Surely you jest.
              I don't know about that didn't increased defense spending in the 40s and earlier in this decade create hundreds of thousands of jobs? We doubled the number of employees and increased the number of outsourced components several thousand percent.
              Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.
              ~Ronald Reagan

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
                sometimes the fix isnt painless. The current situation with China's currency maipulation giving them a 40 percent cost advantage is killing us over the long haul. Imagine how many internal customers you'd have if costs of chinese products were even 20 percent higher
                And imagine what that'd do to the typical American buying goods if a lot of the stuff they typically bought went up 20% all of a sudden off a WTO ruling or a tariff. In the short run, you'd see a run on goods and then there'd be shortages. Not to mention there'd likewise be measures against U.S. goods that'd affect those workers just as well. Remember when G.W. Bush tried to put tariffs on imported steel and the European Union went and put random tariffs on various U.S.-produced goods just so that it was geographically spread across the country enough to force politicians of all political stripes to appeal Bush to drop the steel tariff to not harm their local businesses (for example, I remember one item that got the retaliatory European tariff was apples so that would force the Washington State politicians and people to be against it)?
                Last edited by rj1; 18 Sep 10,, 02:52.

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                • #38
                  A New Keynesian Low - Levered FX Intervention: Brazil To Buy Dollars With Proceeds From Bond Sales | zero hedge

                  When a central bank says it is effectively LBOing Keynesianism, you know it is over. Which is precisely what Guido Mantega, Brazil's finance minister has promised to do. The Latin American country which has been caught in the crossfire of developed world central bank wars, in which it is every last man for himself and he who defects first wins, has just stated it is about to defect (and just in case it is unclear, Mantega clarified that "Brazil's would act on the currency, not just a promise"). And to confirm he means business, Mantega also added that the Brazil Central Bank has no limit to buy dollars. But here's the twist - as reported by Bloomberg, Mantega, speaking to reporters in Brasilia, said the Treasury can sell more debt to increase liquidity to buy dollars. You heard that right: debt-financed currency intervention. At least the trade surplus countries use capital generated from excess exports. Brazil is threatening to do something never before seen, which is to lever up in its FX intervention. Surely, this has to be the last boundary of Keynesian insanity.

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