Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Natural Gas for Cars in US Cities

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Natural Gas for Cars in US Cities

    When stumbling acroos the CIA factbook I found out that the USA has huge natural gas reserves.

    In Australia, the government gives a rebate if you convert your car to a LPG gas tank (natural gas). I was wondering if in the US, there is also "promotion" of natural gas to run cars? Or is the main emphasis in the US on ethanol and/or hybrid electricity.

    IMO, I would think the people who live in the cities would benefit most from LPG run cars because they generally travel the least distance to work. What do you think? :)

    Yes, I know you get roughly half the fuel efficency to petrol so this is not a economical solution for the trucks that distribute goods to retail and grocery stores across the US but for short distances in cities it is a good solution dont you think?
    Remember that 1KG of LPG is 2 litres of LPG. When quoting mileage many magazines conveniently quote 12 km per litre for petrol and 13 kmkg that is actually 6.5 km per litre for LPG. One magazine also quoted the price of LPG as 22 Rs (Rupees) per kg - it is actually close to 28 Rs per litre.
    Do you think it is a viable solution for Americans to gain energy independency and save money? Is it a viable solution for energy independance and not having the economy so affected by high oil prices?

    Also, natural gas is relatively cheaper than petrol in certain circumstances but does anyone know if, say, 10% of the US population adopted LPG cars, what would happen to the price of natural gas? Would it drive up the price substantially, like how increasing Ethanol production has affected grain prices playing a role in affecting food prices in developing countries. Also high natural gas prices would send even higher profits to Russia and Ukraine etc and annoy alot of Europeans, among others.

    This is some info taken from an Australian company that converts cars to natural gas, so its in Australian dollars and may not be so objective but gives some info on the pros and cons of LPG (also do Americans call natural gas LPG? :) ) :

    What are the advantages?


    -The cost per litre of Autogas is less than petrol at the present time.
    -On most dual fuel conversions, the fuel range of the vehicle is increased, provided petrol and gas tanks are full.
    -Gas burns cleaner than petrol, which in turn keeps the spark plugs and combustion chambers relatively free of carbon deposits.
    -A reduction in engine wear in some areas is normally expected, particularly during cold starting because Autogas does not wash lubricating oil from the cylinder wall. However there can be accelerated wear in the valve seat area in some engines. Oil looks clean longer but don’t be misled by its condition - continue to change your oil at normal service schedule intervals.
    -Fuel theft is reduced because Autogas is much more difficult to remove from the cylinder than it is to siphon petrol from a tank.

    What are the disadvantages?


    -The cost of installation has to be recovered before savings are made.
    -On small cars and certain station wagons, the loss of luggage space due to cylinder size can be quite substantial, with the cylinder encroaching well into the luggage area.
    -Other vehicles sometimes require relocation of the spare wheel due to the cylinder being fitted in the spare wheel carrier area underneath.
    -Potential valve seat recession problems when used in some engines.
    -Most engines suffer a slight loss of performance when converted to Autogas. This is mainly due to the compromises needed to use gas in an engine originally designed for petrol.
    -Autogas conversions can use up to 30% more fuel, litre for litre, compared to petrol. Incorrect tuning can drastically increase consumption.
    -Specialised technicians are recommended to carry out maintenance on Autogas installations, which may increase servicing costs of the Autogas system.
    -When running problems become evident in the engine, the vehicle may need attention by a normal service centre and also by an Autogas technician.
    -Cylinder inspection and testing is required after ten years. The expiry date is stamped onto the cylinder. This service averages around $130 to $300, which does not include the labour associated with the removal and replacement of the tank. These tests will determine the remaining life expectancy of the cylinder and related pressure control valves.
    -Recent testing indicates Autogas fuelled vehicles have no cleaner exhaust emissions than late model petrol fuelled vehicles.

    What will it cost me?

    Installation costs are averaging around $2,500 to $4,000, depending on which style of system is fitted i.e. basic vapour mixer or sequential injection, respectively. Petrol is currently priced around $1.35 per litre compared to Autogas, which is approximately 65 cents per litre. However, you generally use more litres of Autogas against litres of petrol. Car maintenance costs may be higher because a licensed installer or repairer must carry out servicing of the Autogas equipment.
    If you have the patience to try to understand the formulas in this quoteyou can work out the fuel economy. But in Oz, LPG= $0.65/ltr Petrol= $1.4/ltr

    Here’s a typical example based on average fuel prices for February 2006:

    (a) Distance travelled per year = 30,000 km
    (b) Petrol consumption = 13 litres/100km
    (c) Petrol price = $1.40/litre
    (d) LPG consumption* = 16.9 litres/100km
    (e) LPG price = $0.65/litre
    The steps to determine your savings are:

    ANNUAL PETROL COST
    = Petrol Consumption (litres) x Petrol Cost (per litre)
    = a / b x c
    = (30,000km / 100 x 13 litres) x $1.40
    = $5,460 per year

    ANNUAL LPG COST
    = LPG Consumption (litres) x LPG Cost (per litre)
    = a / d x e
    = (30,000km / 100 x 16.9 litres) x $0.65
    = $3,295 per year

    SAVINGS = Annual Petrol Cost - Annual LPG Cost
    = $5,460 - $3,295
    = $2,165 savings per year
    = $41.63 savings per week
    LPG Autogas Australia
    Last edited by Helium; 25 May 08,, 09:00.

  • #2
    As far as I know, only CA and NY have NGV (natural gas vehicle) on sale to the general public. I have seen a lot of Honda Civic NGVs on the streets.

    I recently read an article (on newspaper I think...or could be on MSN) that said many people in UT are buying used NGVs from CA because they have a distribution network already for other uses around Salt Lack City region. Those who managed to acquire one basically drive on the equivalent of $1/gal of gasoline.

    It's great to have an alternative to gasoline to lessen our reliance on oil, especialy that we are not allowed to explore our own reserves. The problems I see is the increased usage of this fuel would actually drive up its price.

    Natural gas is cheap because the demand is low. What do you think would happen to the price if the demand increased 20 fold or 50 fold?

    With increased number of NGVs on the road, we need to add to our distribution network. That's another cost for the gas stations to bear. Who end up paying for it? Everyone else, to cover the capital cost involved. Eventually the cost of driving an NGV will be the same as a regular gasoline vehicle, except you can't fuel it up everywhere you want to go.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

    Comment


    • #3
      there are ngv cars in nyc, but not in hands of general population, it is city owned vehicles, like dot,(nowadays they get priuses) mta, and other government agencys and fleets. also i see less and less of them, they are replaced by hybrids civics, priuses, amd in some cases hydrid ford escape.
      "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

      Comment


      • #4
        CNG consumer infrastructure

        In Colorado we produce a significant amount of natural gas, both north and west of Denver. The commodity price currently is low due to a glut in the domestic market, a still developing pipeline network, and decreased industrial demand. Colorado is actively developing a compressed natural gas (CNG) market by making supply readily available across the state, and promoting conversions to CNG vehicles in fleets, mass transit systems, and individual consumers. At current wholesale prices CNG is 50-60% of the cost of retail gasoline and diesel, where (and only where) enough demand exists to justify supply infrastructure.

        Comment


        • #5
          Helium,

          Do you notice ppl mentioning CNG here. That's more efficient & VFM than LPG. The problem is the distribution network. Can't go very far or you cannot refuel. Also the tank needs to be more robust than with LPG. You cannot convert your car to CNG but LPG so thats where the CNG has the more efficency as its built for it from the start. The tank tends to be much larger than petrol so thats a downside for a smaller car.

          LPG is quite common here with public transport think tuk-tuks or 'autos' as we call them. CNG is making an appearance in some towns but you're limited in how far you can go.

          Canada is supposed to have a developed infrastructure for CNG or was that LPG going from what i've heard. In the US its mostly gasoline. It was rockbottom cheap enough for so long that there never was a need to go for an alternative. Gasoline prices would have to remain high for an extended period of time before CNG becomes feasible in the US.

          Where is tankie btw, he was so gung ho a while ago about converting his car to LPG. Buy Blitish is the way :)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Helium View Post

            Yes, I know you get roughly half the fuel efficency to petrol so this is not a economical solution for the trucks that distribute goods to retail and grocery stores across the US but for short distances in cities it is a good solution dont you think?

            Helium - Our business cars have run off LPG for the past 15 years at least. Older systems are relatively inefficient (but still work out to be between 10-15% cheaper nowadays). All of our cars were converted to gas before the rebate came in.

            Newer systems and cars that are made to run off them get just as much, if not more power and pretty near the same economy as Petrol. If you want one installed however, be prepared to pay $6G.

            Gun Nut -
            LPG (we call it gas) has been widely available for at least 20 years, these days pretty much ever station has a number of pumps - country included.
            It's not all relative to demand either I believe, as the price of LPG fluctuates on the same level as that of Petrol and Diesel.

            Go Figure, we import from Singapore Petrol and Diesel, but LNG... on a smaller market.....

            Our cars do a tremendous amount of Travel, with loads as well.
            Last edited by Chunder; 14 Jun 11,, 13:28.
            Ego Numquam

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post

              Where is tankie btw, he was so gung ho a while ago about converting his car to LPG. Buy Blitish is the way :)
              Would you buy British? Tankie is living proof of what happens to you if you drive around in something made in Britain for a living.
              Ego Numquam

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Chunder View Post
                Would you buy British? Tankie is living proof of what happens to you if you drive around in something made in Britain for a living.


                Pffft , yes your right Chunder , it drove me to drink
                Last edited by tankie; 14 Jun 11,, 20:34.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've never ridden in a Challenger.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    I've never ridden in a Challenger.
                    Nor me , cents chiefs n cvrt yup

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ^^ didn't you put that decal on the SLK?

                      You don't deserve to ride in a challenger, so just stop asking.
                      "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        And then there is propane (and propane accessories sold by Hank Hill - King of the Hill)
                        Seriously these are good fossil fuels. They are cheaper and pollute less than most liquid fuels, they are more expensive to set up, but depending on the situation they can save $$$.
                        The have lower specific energy so they give less milage - but they have advantages too.
                        They are not high performance fuels - and can make an engine run lean if not properly setup - this will damage the engine. Performance can be regained with supercharging and higher compression ratios.
                        sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                        If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                          As far as I know, only CA and NY have NGV (natural gas vehicle) on sale to the general public. I have seen a lot of Honda Civic NGVs on the streets.
                          When I was hanging out in Newport Beach I had a buddy cab driver to take me around ( I was sea-locked). Name was Vernon. Big black dude. Great guy, we used to go down to Tijuana and mis-behave.

                          He had a CNG cab, brand new Crown Vic. State of CA paid him 8K to buy that cab, and there were refueling spots he could hit day or nite. If there was no one there, he would make a call and someone would show up in like 5 minutes. State law.

                          He had a plan to get a fleet of those subsidized cars, cost him practically nothing.
                          "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by highsea View Post
                            ^^ didn't you put that decal on the SLK?

                            You don't deserve to ride in a challenger, so just stop asking.
                            Yup to the SLK andddddddddddddd it was cooooooool , chally would probz have made me tooooo nostalgic so i turned the ride down

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tankie View Post
                              Yup to the SLK andddddddddddddd it was cooooooool , chally would probz have made me tooooo nostalgic so i turned the ride down
                              Are these rides in British AFV's or Hemi powered Chrysler auto's? I drove the Hemi Charger (auto), it seemed like it had a big electric motor - way too fast, but far too quiet and smooth for what is was supposed to be. The Ford Mustang GT sounded and felt much more like a muscle car... Both had TME syndrome (Too Much Engine).
                              sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                              If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X