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  • #76
    Separation of church and state is a creation of the 20th century
    Please explain further.

    He means that if there is no God then there is no morality because you can only establish morality if there is some being higher then ourselves.
    Well i was kinda kidding about the nakedness bit :)

    But the quote above, is that a personal belief, or a founding principle? there is loads of details about your history i don't know.
    at

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Trooth
      Please explain further.
      The phase "Separation of Church and State" is not in the Constitution. The Constitution states that the government shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. Or the government can make a state church like in England. This doesn't, as many people now intrepid it, mean that the national religion is atheism. Almost all of the founding fathers were religious Christians.

      But the quote above, is that a personal belief, or a founding principle? there is loads of details about your history i don't know.
      It's a logical certitude. If there is no God then there can be no morality because everyone's view of what is right and what is wrong would have equal weight. If there is no God, then there is no objective right and wrong. If I regard mass murder as right, who is to say that I'm wrong? You could, but what would make you opinion right and mine wrong since there is no objective truth to the question.

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      • #78
        It's a logical certitude. If there is no God then there can be no morality because everyone's view of what is right and what is wrong would have equal weight. If there is no God, then there is no objective right and wrong. If I regard mass murder as right, who is to say that I'm wrong? You could, but what would make you opinion right and mine wrong since there is no objective truth to the question.
        Isn't the presupposition of a higher being subjective itself? Further the nature of the being must also be assumed?
        To extend the mass murder argument. What if the higher being was in favour of it?
        at

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Trooth
          Isn't the presupposition of a higher being subjective itself? Further the nature of the being must also be assumed?
          To extend the mass murder argument. What if the higher being was in favour of it?
          God isn't a being. God is the embodiment of Good. It is impossible for God to be in favor of mass murder because mass murder is not good. BTW, your argument doesn't refute anything I said.

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          • #80
            i wasn't refuting your argument, merely exploring it.

            I had never thought of the US as having a state religion of Atheism, as you mentioned. My interpretation had been more of agnosticism. that of the state not presupposing to know the Answer and therefore not judging others and their beliefs when weighed against some state yardstick.

            In terms of the embodyment of good etc. I guess that supports the agnosticism idea? To proposea a stylised God, not the interpretation of any particular religion?
            at

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            • #81
              Yeah, you got that about right Troth.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Trooth
                i wasn't refuting your argument, merely exploring it.

                I had never thought of the US as having a state religion of Atheism, as you mentioned. My interpretation had been more of agnosticism. that of the state not presupposing to know the Answer and therefore not judging others and their beliefs when weighed against some state yardstick.

                In terms of the embodyment of good etc. I guess that supports the agnosticism idea? To proposea a stylised God, not the interpretation of any particular religion?
                Agnosticism is also a religion. So by establishing Agnosticism the government would be violating the constitution. The Founding Fathers were not agnostics, and the constitution is not an agnostic document.

                As to the rest, either God doesn't exist and there is no morality, God exists and created the world as good, has made each human good therefore each human has worth thus morality, or God is evil in which case we should all just shoot ourselves because after all what would be the point of living if God took pleasure in and caused human suffering.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by M21Sniper
                  Yeah, you got that about right Troth.
                  :roll

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                  • #84
                    Nope, i wasn't proposing any sort of thing.

                    I was under the impression that the cistizens of the US were free to decide whether God was indeed good, evil, good and evil, exists as a phyisical or ethereal entity, exists only in the hearts and minds of His believers, exists as little cells called meta-chlorines. However whatever said US citizen was deciding (s)he lives in country founded upon certain principles (or inalienable rights).

                    Despite the tag of "God's Country", it wasn't foudned by Him, it was founded by man.
                    at

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Trooth
                      Nope, i wasn't proposing any sort of thing.

                      I was under the impression that the cistizens of the US were free to decide whether God was indeed good, evil, good and evil, exists as a phyisical or ethereal entity, exists only in the hearts and minds of His believers, exists as little cells called meta-chlorines. However whatever said US citizen was deciding (s)he lives in country founded upon certain principles (or inalienable rights).

                      Despite the tag of "God's Country", it wasn't foudned by Him, it was founded by man.
                      People are free to choose any religion they want. They are not free to force those views on the majority, some 90% of Americans, which call themselves Christians. American is a Christian nation, and it always has been. Other religions are welcome and are free to practice any religious beliefs they want (within reason of course). There are no religious police walking around the country, but that doesn't change our identity as a nation. We will continue to have "in God we trust" on our currency and "one nation under God" in the pledge of allegiance.

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                      • #86
                        So the God in "in God we trust" is referring specifically to the God in the Bible, in your opinion?
                        at

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Trooth
                          So the God in "in God we trust" is referring specifically to the God in the Bible, in your opinion?
                          It refers to a God, period. And express the over whelming opinion of the nation that, God, in some form, does exist.

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                          • #88
                            "It refers to a God, period. And express the over whelming opinion of the nation that, God, in some form, does exist."

                            I couldn't have said it better...I think maybe even some ACLU people might understand that. :P

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by naocman
                              "It refers to a God, period. And express the over whelming opinion of the nation that, God, in some form, does exist."

                              I couldn't have said it better...I think maybe even some ACLU people might understand that. :P
                              I doubt people from Joseph Stalin U. understand much of anything outside of the brainwashing they receive.
                              Your look more lost than a bastard child on fathers day.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Stinger
                                I doubt people from Joseph Stalin U. understand much of anything outside of the brainwashing they receive.
                                LMAO, that and what the "little red book" says

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