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COVID-2019 in America, effect on politics and economy

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  • Originally posted by kato View Post
    Over here any sort of face shield is not considered a legal replacement for a mask (except in all coastal west German states for some reason).
    In the US they did a study last month or so which found that face shields are virtually useless in preventing aerosol spread.
    Aerosol spray is overstated. The vast majority of infection is droplets. Otherwise, the DIAMOND PRINCESS would have been a plague ship. It wasn't. Has it happened? Sure but it's nowhere as dangerous as people makes it out to be.

    Face shields are good enough. However, I don't wear a face shield. I wear a nose and mouth guard.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 19 Oct 20,, 14:14.
    Chimo

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    • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

      Once again my sticking point which has been mentioned already. Corporate liability which protects corps over the average person many of whom are Democrats. Republicans have always been about limiting the ability of the average citizen suing a corporation.

      So come to work, or lose job. Tough. So come to work, get sick, and then lose job. So tough.I say to hell with that. So drop that and maybe we can talk. Insist on it then take a flying leap.
      This right here is what I am talking about. 3 different firms in my county, one a Perdue Poultry Processing Plant, have been cited by the Commonwealth of Virginia for placing their employees at risk from COVID breakout due to haphazard COVID precautions lead to outbreaks at all three sites. McConnell's Bill would provide protections for those companies because "The Economy".

      Not at the expense of the workers...no way.

      THAT is what I mean when I say Pelosi should not take the deal.
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

      Comment


      • Poll finds 1 in 4 workers have thought of quitting. Mainly in jobs that cannot be done from home.

        The coronavirus pandemic has put millions of Americans out of work. But many of those still working are fearful, distressed and stretched thin.

        A quarter of U.S. workers say they have even considered quitting their jobs as worries related to the pandemic weigh on them, according to a new poll by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research in collaboration with the software company SAP. A fifth say they have taken leave.

        About 7 in 10 workers cited juggling their jobs and other responsibilities as a source of stress. Fears of contracting the virus also was a top concern for those working outside the home........


        https://apnews.com/article/virus-out...8131532d516530

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        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
          Aerosol spray is overstated. The vast majority of infection is droplets. Otherwise, the DIAMOND PRINCESS would have been a plague ship. It wasn't. Has it happened? Sure but it's nowhere as dangerous as people makes it out to be.

          Face shields are good enough. However, I don't wear a face shield. I wear a nose and mouth guard.
          Its very difficult to prove definitely one way or the other. You have to piece things together to put a guess on aersol spread.

          The chinese bus study suggested that one man with no symptoms or cough managed to infect 23 out of 68 people on a bus (I think in under an hour) including people on the other end of the bus. This would have to be circulating aerosols in a non ventilated space.There was another incident on a flight to vietnam where many people were infected. These were pre mask wearing events from earlier in the year. Overall we went from alot of scientfic skepticism on aerosol to relative aggreement that its a threat. Before the pandemic it was a major source of debate in the scientific community, aerosol vs droplet for these kinds of viruses.

          I would suggest shields are a very bad idea and even dangerous for waiters and waitresses as it can direct droplets and aerosols directly down onto customers sitting below the standing worker and I wouldnt want to even be on the other end of a plane or bus or large room with windows closed with a non mask wearing superspreader showing no symptoms.
          Last edited by tantalus; 19 Oct 20,, 17:52.

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          • Originally posted by tantalus View Post
            Its very difficult to prove definitely one way or the other. You have to piece things together to put a guess on aersol spread.
            Actuall, very easy. Look at the numbers. 98% of the infections we can trace are within 6 meters. You will ALWAYS get outlyers. Aerosol will get you plague ships and plague houses REQUIRING N95 masks, hell, actual NBC gear to prevent spread and decontamination areas. We have yet to have plague ships and houses. We don't have plague ships nor plague buildings. Even here in Ontario in old age homes where we can trace infections, infections are done via physical contacts and within social distancing.

            A single plane or a bus does not erase the majority of the data. As with all life/death decisions, youy HAVE to make best decision possible based on best intel available and the intel says droplets within six meters. That intel says you can get away with cloth masks, social distancing, washing hands, etc. If you want to prevent aerosol, then you need everyone wearing NBC gear and proper decontaimnination. That does not make sense based on the 98% infections that we know of.

            Chinese waiting staff face shields. The blue/black nose/mouth guard is what I use.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 19 Oct 20,, 19:19.
            Chimo

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            • Talked to two patients this afternoon living up in the Reno area. Turns out the husband contracted the virus around October 6th and the wife around October 9th. Husband lost sense of taste and smell. Muscle aches, slight cough, and slight temperature. Wife, muscle aches, cough, smell, taste, hard to breath and hurt when she did, and a 103.4 temperature upon entering ER late on the 13th. Got out on the 17th but was on O2 through a mask as doctors and nurses hovered around constantly for the first 48 hours. He was cleared on October 17th and she expects to be cleared on the 21st. Says her vision has gone downhill in this time so I will have to check on that. Her recommendation: you don't want to experiment and get this sick. Him 53 and her 55. Husband says everything tastes metallic and MD say could be 6 months like that. Told him to stop with the steel and move to charcoal.

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              • tantalus,

                per our earlier discussion. negotiation is impossible when one side is not interested.

                McConnell warns White House against making stimulus deal as Pelosi and Mnuchin inch closer

                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  tantalus,

                  per our earlier discussion. negotiation is impossible when one side is not interested.

                  McConnell warns White House against making stimulus deal as Pelosi and Mnuchin inch closer
                  Link doesnt work for me but atleast Pelosi and the democrats are doing their bit. Its important that pelosi continues to negotiate and comes to an agreement even if for purely political reasons. The rest is not her problem and sadly out of her control.

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                  • The negotiation should be between the White House and Leader McConnell
                    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                    Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                      The negotiation should be between the White House and Leader McConnell
                      If Pelosi and McConnell agree, The Trumpet will fall in line.
                      But, McConnell knows Pelosi won't cave in on corporate immunity, so he's counting on the political spin to keep his job.
                      Trust me?
                      I'm an economist!

                      Comment


                      • Discussion of CDC report, ~300k "excess deaths" in US currently associated with COVID-19 pandemic (not ~221k).

                        Last edited by JRT; 22 Oct 20,, 16:52.
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                        • The hidden long-term cognitive effects of COVID-19

                          08 October 2020
                          Andrew E. Budson, MDAndrew E. Budson, MD
                          Contributor - Harvard Health Publishing, Harvard Medical School

                          The COVID pandemic has now claimed as many American lives as World War I, the Vietnam War, and the Korean War combined. Most of these deaths are due to the well-known pulmonary complications of the coronavirus. It has become increasingly recognized, however, that the virus also attacks the nervous system. Doctors in a large Chicago medical center found that more than 40% of patients with COVID showed neurologic manifestations at the outset, and more than 30% of those had impaired cognition. Sometimes the neurological manifestations can be devastating and can even lead to death.

                          However, new research is now suggesting that there may be long-term neurologic consequences in those who survive COVID infections, including more than seven million Americans and another 27 million people worldwide. Particularly troubling is increasing evidence that there may be mild — but very real — brain damage that occurs in many survivors, causing pervasive yet subtle cognitive, behavioral, and psychological problems.

                          How COVID damages the brain
                          COVID can cause damage to the brain directly by encephalitis, which may have devastating or subtle consequences. In one British study of 12 patients with encephalitis, one made a full recovery, 10 made a partial recovery, and one died. This study also found that a number of patients with COVID suffered strokes. In fact, COVID infection is a risk factor for strokes. A group of Canadian doctors found that individuals over 70 years of age were at particularly high risk for stroke related to COVID infection, but even young individuals are seven times more likely to have a stroke from this coronavirus versus a typical flu virus.

                          Autopsy data from COVID patients in Finland suggests that another major cause of brain damage is lack of oxygen. Particularly worrisome is that several of the patients who were autopsied did not show any signs of brain injury during the course of their COVID infection — yet all had brain damage. In one patient there was loss of taste, and in two there was “minimal respiratory distress,” but none of these patients were thought to have any brain damage while alive.

                          Major cognitive effects of COVID
                          In survivors of intensive care unit (ICU) stays due to acute respiratory failure or shock from any cause, one-third of people show such a profound degree of cognitive impairment that performance on neuropsychological testing is comparable to those with moderate traumatic brain injury. In daily life, such cognitive effects on memory, attention, and executive function can lead to difficulties managing medications, managing finances, comprehending written materials, and even carrying on conversations with friends and family. Commonly observed long-term psychological effects of ICU stays include anxiety, depression, and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Effects due to COVID ICU stays are expected to be similar — a prediction that has already been confirmed by the studies in Britain, Canada, and Finland reviewed above.

                          Subtle cognitive effects of COVID
                          It is clear that COVID can cause brain damage by direct infection (encephalitis), by strokes, and by lack of oxygen. It is also clear that when patients experience severe illness requiring an ICU stay, brain damage is highly likely to occur, and its effects are typically obvious. But what if the COVID illness is not so severe? Can brain damage still occur?

                          A Chinese group of doctors and researchers examined several aspects of cognitive function in 29 individuals who were thought to have fully recovered from COVID infection. They found persistent impairment in sustained attention — the ability to attend to important information for as long as it is relevant.

                          Long-term cognitive effects of COVID infection
                          Why would sustained attention be persistently impaired in individuals who were thought to have fully recovered from COVID? The Chinese group thought it might be linked to underlying inflammatory processes. But it is equally likely that patients with COVID suffered silent strokes or lack of oxygen that damaged their brains. As discussed above, strokes due to COVID are common, particularly in those over 70. We know that silent strokes frequently occur, and are a risk factor for both large strokes and dementia. Silent strokes typically affect the brain’s white matter — the wiring between brain cells that enables different parts of the brain to communicate with each other. This wiring is essential for attention, and when it is damaged, sustained attention is impaired.

                          The bottom line
                          There is one inevitable conclusion from these studies: COVID infection frequently leads to brain damage — particularly in those over 70. While sometimes the brain damage is obvious and leads to major cognitive impairment, more frequently the damage is mild, leading to difficulties with sustained attention.


                          Although many people who have recovered from COVID can resume their daily lives without difficulty — even if they have some deficits in attention — there are a number of people who may experience difficulty now or later. One recently published paper from a group of German and American doctors concluded that the combination of direct effects of the virus, systemic inflammation, strokes, and damage to bodily organs (like lungs and liver) could even make COVID survivors at high risk for Alzheimer’s disease in the future. Individuals whose professions involve medical care, legal advice, financial planning, or leadership — including political leaders — may need to be carefully evaluated with formal neuropsychological testing, including measures of sustained attention, to assure that their cognition has not been compromised.

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                          Last edited by JRT; 28 Oct 20,, 13:54.
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                          • Meanwhile, Wuhan enjoys a good old Halloween parade!
                            https://www.foxnews.com/world/thousa...in-wuhan-china

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                            • "In California, you have a special mask. You cannot under any circumstances take it off. You have to eat through the mask. Right, right, Charlie? It's a very complex mechanism. And they don't realize those germs, they go through it like nothing."

                              and Biden is the one with cognitive problems?
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                "In California, you have a special mask. You cannot under any circumstances take it off. You have to eat through the mask. Right, right, Charlie? It's a very complex mechanism. And they don't realize those germs, they go through it like nothing."

                                and Biden is the one with cognitive problems?
                                Well actually this is what we all look like on the street and in stores lately. Straws are a big seller. Just ask Hannibal a fellow zombie...
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by tbm3fan; 30 Oct 20,, 21:49.

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