Moreover, it appears that in theory, Congress can reject electors and thus overturn an election by a simple majority vote in both houses.
There doesn't seem anything that might stop party from attempting this; besides a fear of being wiped out in subsequent elections to the Congress.
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Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
Trump & his family don't overly worry me. They might even be a positive from the POV of messing up the GOP & keeoing those who opposed Trump focussed.
What worries me is that a whole bunch of GOP voters have finally arrived at the destination the party has been toying with for a couple of decades - democracy is a bad idea because it means Republicans don't always retain power. I'm not expecting them to take up arms and attempt to bring down the Republic (well, not many of them). What I am expecting is that they spend the next decade purging the party of the sort of people who actually stood up for democracy this time.
Enough elements of Trumpism will survive for someone else to forge them into something just as dangerous but in an environment with even fewer checks & balances.
I don't think the American Republic is in any immediate danger of being overthrown, even given the state of the Republican party. However, it took about a 100 years for the Roman Republic to fall from the time of the Grachii brothers to Octavian. I think the further decline of democratic institutions in the US due to Trumpism or whatever might follow it is definitely a possibility.
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Top presidential historian on Trump's legacy: 'He was largely responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans who did not need to die'
Michael Beschloss, a prominent presidential historian, in an interview with MSNBC this week said that historians will need time to fully assess President Donald Trump's legacy but that he'll never be able to escape the COVID-19 death toll.
"Donald Trump is not going to change the record. He was largely responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans who did not need to die," Beschloss said. "Millions of others who suffered from covid did not need to suffer…This is really Nero's fiddling while Rome burns."
The US has the highest numbers of reported COVID-19 cases and fatalities in the world.
As of Wednesday morning, there have been over 19.5 million confirmed COVID-19 cases and nearly 339,000 reported deaths from the virus in the US, according to Johns Hopkins. Public health experts have consistently criticized Trump's handling of the pandemic, contending that a more coherent response from the president could've prevented tens of thousands of deaths.
Beschloss and Mehdi Hasan, who interviewed the historian while guest-hosting MSNBC's "All In with Chris Hayes," also excoriated Trump over his recent actions that nearly derailed the newest COVID-19 stimulus bill.
Trump delayed economic assistance to millions Americans by initially refusing to sign a $900 billion COVID-19 stimulus package this month. The president said he wanted the $600 direct payments included as part of the legislation to be bumped up to $2000.
But Trump's last-minute demands went against what his own treasury secretary and Republican leaders in Congress had pushed for in lengthy, tedious negotiations over the stimulus with Democrats. Critics of the president have said he essentially delayed desperately needed assistance to Americans in order to score cheap political points.
Beschloss said that top-ranked presidents, such as Abraham Lincoln, were known for their compassion and empathy. But Trump does not qualify in this regard, he said.
"Donald Trump is the kind of person that we have never ever seen before in the presidency, and I hope we never ever see again," Beschloss said. "When you've got a president who has no empathy, who has no compassion, you see a spectacle like what we've seen this week."
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Originally posted by Bigfella View PostI'm not expecting them to take up arms and attempt to bring down the Republic (well, not many of them). What I am expecting is that they spend the next decade purging the party of the sort of people who actually stood up for democracy this time.
Enough elements of Trumpism will survive for someone else to forge them into something just as dangerous but in an environment with even fewer checks & balances.
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Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
Well in most cases Trumpers aren't returning home to country that was razed to the ground, or to a country beset by horrendous food shortages. No, they're going back to their McMansions and their boats, or their double-wide and raised 4x4 pickup trucks. I don't really expect widespread problems between now and January 20th. Isolated and sporadic instances of violence and even murder, yeah. Trump's Proud Boys and Oath Keepers will certainly cause problems here and there, and of course they already have.
Eventually the flags will start to come down and in some cases they already have. People will slowly lose faith and their manic devotion to Trump, but not in the primal simplicity and selfishness of Trumpism. Rock groups come and go but rock and roll lives forever.
As JRT pointed out earlier, and I've mentioned entirely too many times: Time is not on this extremely unhealthy man's side and the stress and strain of being decisively rejected by people of the United States will only accelerate his eventual demise. Dementia, first noticed in his father in 1991, took him at the age of 93 just 8 years later, but I suspect Trump won't last nearly that long. I'd say Trump's got until his mid-80's at the very most and only if he's extraordinarily lucky.
So, within 5-10 years, Trump goes the way of the dodo
The only question is, does his malignant brood pick up his political mantle and carry on just as effectively? I sincerely doubt it. They won't even be able to hold onto what's left of their grandfather's financial empire. Clogs to clogs in only three generations, and all that sort of thing...
What worries me is that a whole bunch of GOP voters have finally arrived at the destination the party has been toying with for a couple of decades - democracy is a bad idea because it means Republicans don't always retain power. I'm not expecting them to take up arms and attempt to bring down the Republic (well, not many of them). What I am expecting is that they spend the next decade purging the party of the sort of people who actually stood up for democracy this time.
Enough elements of Trumpism will survive for someone else to forge them into something just as dangerous but in an environment with even fewer checks & balances.
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Six Things to Know about Trump’s Defense Veto
The NDAA usually becomes law without a hitch. Trump decided to break a 59-year-long pattern for the stupidest reasons.
On Wednesday, President Donald Trump vetoed the 2021 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). For the past 59 years, the NDAA has become law with comfortable congressional majorities and uneventful presidential signatures. Trump’s veto is another first in an administration of regrettable, norm-busting firsts.
Here are six things to know about it.
1. The NDAA is the first of two steps for funding the military. It authorizes spending, but it is the separate from the legislation—a defense appropriations bill, or an omnibus appropriations bill, or a continuing resolution—that instructs the Department of Treasury to give money to the Department of Defense for the coming fiscal year. Even though since 1961 there has never been an appropriation without authorization, “unauthorized” spending regularly happens for other departments. Most of the military can be funded via appropriations without a new authorization bill being passed.
However, the NDAA does more than merely direct cash flows. First, it authorizes funds for compensation for military personnel and civilians in combat zones, which expire on December 31. It also includes renewal for other compensation and benefits, such as healthcare for National Guard members, parental leave, and housing. Mac Thornberry, chairman of the House Committee on Armed Services, warned that if the bill doesn’t become law, “Members of Congress [would be] going home for Christmas while many military families would have their pay go down.” It looks like that’s what’s now happening.
2. Without the NDAA, several military construction projects cannot proceed. According to Bloomberg Government, “the Pentagon would miss out on almost $6 billion for new construction projects to protect military bases, munitions, and nuclear weapons” if NDAA does not become law. This is part of the reason that, for almost six decades, the legislation has been considered “must pass” even though the military can technically operate without it.
3. Most importantly, the NDAA helps set the national military policy. Sometimes, these changes are not very significant. Sometimes they are. The 2015 NDAA included the European Reassurance Initiative (originally called the European Deterrence Initiative) to correct the embarrassing state of American forces in Europe when Russia seized Crimea and invaded eastern Ukraine in 2014: Faced with the first armed seizure of territory on the continent since World War II, the United States had no tanks anywhere in Europe. The new NDAA that Trump vetoed has a similar provision strengthening American military posture in Asia called the Pacific Deterrence Initiative (PDI). Under the new NDAA, it would be the military policy of the United States to rapidly increase deterrence of China in Asia-Pacific region.
4. Congress can still appropriate funds for all of the items that the NDAA calls for, such as three new “silent” submarines and 79 F-35 stealth fighter jets, and the Department of Defense can deploy however many of them to the Asia-Pacific region it deems fit. Under the NDAA, however, it will be a part of national policy, enshrined in law, to direct these additional resources towards that region. Making such policy through law ensures congressional buy-in, telling allies and adversaries that both elected branches of the government are unified. In this case, Congress is signaling that, after Trump is gone, the United States will still recognize the threat from China. Trump has said that the NDAA is a gift to China; in reality, his veto of the bill is a gift to General Secretary Xi Jinping.
5. There are two reasons that Trump vetoed the bill. The first fight came over the military bases named after Confederate generals. It is ridiculous that the United States military has for so long honored those traitors who killed its members and sought to topple the United States government. It makes just as much sense to have a base named after Robert E. Lee as it would to have a Fort Benedict Arnold.
Many respected military leaders have expressed support for renaming the bases, most prominently retired Army Gen. David Petraeus. Another retired Army general, Stanley McChrystal, wrote that he had thrown out the portrait of Lee that he used to own. Marine Corps Commandant David Berger banned the rebel flag on Marine bases.
Trump says he doesn’t like losers, but to make an exception for rebel leaders like Lee and Braxton Bragg, he’s willing to stonewall (so to speak) the military’s funding and policy process. Someone ought to tell the president that Bragg was captured.
6. The second reason for Trump’s veto is somehow even more ridiculous. He is annoyed that some social media have been fact-checking him. The easy way to fix the problem is to stop lying. Trump, however, wants to get rid of section 230 of the Communications Decency Act that liberates websites from being legally liable for what their users post. How will that help with the fact-checking? It won’t. It will require them to be even more rigorous to avoid legal problems. But Trump threatened earlier this month to veto the NDAA if it did not also repeal section 230—which, to be clear, has nothing to do with military policy.
The commander-in-chief brags about being tough on China and loving the troops, but he is trying to cut benefits for uniformed servicemembers and reject a policy of deterring Chinese aggression so he can honor treason and annoy Twitter. January 20 can’t come soon enough.
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Oh yeah, Trump loves the military alrighty....Except for POWs, KIAs and WIAs. They're not heroes, they're just losers.
So is this how you "drain the swamp" or "Make America Great Again" or whatever line of horseshit he usually feeds to his cult?
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Originally posted by JRT View Post
Why would they do that?
They won't until he fades. He won't fade as long as he makes enough money from it to make it worthwhile.
Donald J. Trump is 74 and obese. That combination of age and obesity is a recipe for the triple threat of hypertension, diabetes and arterial disease. He will eventually fade regardless what he wants.
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Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
The main problem with this article is the idea that people who supported Trump are 'appalled' by wha the has done. They aren't. With the exception of a handful they love him more than ever - the man got 12 million more votes than in 2016. Every single bad thing that has happened either doesn't exist or is the fault of Democrats and 'RINOs'. Zero exceptions.
He also picked the wrong World War. Trump supporters aren't defeated Nazi soldiers surveying a ruined & occupied homeland and finally realizing tghe ywere wrong. They are WW1 soldiers still loyal to the Kaiser and returning to an untouched homeland that has actually won some significant victories. Their heads are full of conspiracy theories about being stabbed in the back and they are ready to take up arms to put in place a dictator.
1945 Germany was uttely defeated and open to a complete transformation to a better model. 1918 Germany was just taking a breath before barrelling down an even darker path. Which do you think best resembles Trumpers?
Eventually the flags will start to come down and in some cases they already have. People will slowly lose faith and their manic devotion to Trump, but not in the primal simplicity and selfishness of Trumpism. Rock groups come and go but rock and roll lives forever.
As JRT pointed out earlier, and I've mentioned entirely too many times: Time is not on this extremely unhealthy man's side and the stress and strain of being decisively rejected by people of the United States will only accelerate his eventual demise. Dementia, first noticed in his father in 1991, took him at the age of 93 just 8 years later, but I suspect Trump won't last nearly that long. I'd say Trump's got until his mid-80's at the very most and only if he's extraordinarily lucky.
So, within 5-10 years, Trump goes the way of the dodo
The only question is, does his malignant brood pick up his political mantle and carry on just as effectively? I sincerely doubt it. They won't even be able to hold onto what's left of their grandfather's financial empire. Clogs to clogs in only three generations, and all that sort of thing...
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inexile,
In 2008, just having the financial crash on their watch caused the Republicans to lose in a landslide; by modern standards. Arguably, Bush was not guilty of any specific actions or incompetence that may have resulted in the causing of the crash compared to Trump's actions in the run up to the pandemic.
see how quickly the GOP base turned on Bush after he left the Presidency.
Even stark incompetence during a pandemic resulting in over 300,000 deaths barely caused a shift of about 1% of the voters in the direction of Biden. Jokes about shooting on fifth avenue aside, it does seem there is nothing Trump could do that would lose him most of his supporters.
Biden had small coat-tails, and is a warning to the Democratic Party that in many places, they didn't so much as convert large sections of suburbia to the Party, but rather got a one-time good deal.
It does seem to me that perhaps 30-40% of Americans might cheer on if Trump was able to overturn the election and usher in a more authoritarian regime.
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Originally posted by tbm3fan View PostThe only way and quickest way to eliminate him is for the press to ignore him at all costs. Without them he fades into the shadows and that will drive him up the wall and then he still must be ignored.
They won't until he fades. He won't fade as long as he makes enough money from it to make it worthwhile.
Donald J. Trump is 74 and obese. That combination of age and obesity is a recipe for the triple threat of hypertension, diabetes and arterial disease. He will eventually fade regardless what he wants.Last edited by JRT; 29 Dec 20,, 15:32.
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Originally posted by Politico
Bernie Sanders to delay defense veto override in bid for $2,000 checks
by Burgess Everett
28 December 2020
Sen. Bernie Sanders will filibuster an override of President Donald Trump’s defense bill veto unless the Senate holds a vote on providing $2,000 direct payments to Americans.
“McConnell and the Senate want to expedite the override vote and I understand that. But I’m not going to allow that to happen unless there is a vote, no matter how long that takes, on the $2,000 direct payment,” Sanders said in an interview on Monday night. The Vermont independent can’t ultimately stop the veto override vote, but he can delay it until New Year’s Day and make things more difficult for the GOP.
The House passed the payment boost sought by Trump and Democratic leaders on Monday evening, and Trump said the Senate has agreed to “start the process” on a stimulus checks vote when he signed the $900 billion relief bill. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has yet to address the timing of such a vote.
Under Senate rules, Sanders has the ability to keep the chamber in during the holiday week and likely mess with the campaign schedules of Sens. David Perdue (R-Ga.) and Kelly Loeffler (R-Ga.). Those two face Jan. 5 runoff races for control of the Senate against Democrats Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock, who are both campaigning on the $2,000 checks.
A source close to Sanders said the Senate races were a factor in his decision — part of a bid to keep Perdue and Loeffler in D.C. and focus the campaign on their position regarding the $2,000 checks. Sanders also threatened to shut down the government earlier this month if the coronavirus relief bill did not include direct payments; ultimately it included checks of up to $600 and the government stayed open, though now Trump wants to go much higher.
Though veto overrides can be filibustered, as Sanders plans to do, it is a rare procedural move because the veto override already requires 67 votes and the filibuster is simply a delay tactic, according to the Congressional Research Service.
Sanders said he hopes McConnell allows a vote on the checks on Wednesday.
“The American people are desperate, and the Senate has got to do its job before leaving town,” Sanders said. “It would be unconscionable, especially after the House did the right thing, for the Senate to simply leave Washington without voting on this.”
It’s not clear whether there are 60 votes in the Senate for the $2,000 checks, which would require at least 12 Republicans to join with the chamber’s 48 Democratic Caucus members. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer plans to try and force a vote on the House-passed bill Tuesday, though any one member of the Senate can object and many conservatives oppose that level of spending.
Still, Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) endorsed the $2,000 checks on Monday night and some House Republicans supported it on the floor, demonstrating a split in the party over whether to give Trump the checks he’s demanding as he prepares to leave office in January.
.
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Last edited by JRT; 29 Dec 20,, 15:04.
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Originally posted by astralis View Postwe really needed a massive repudiation of the GOP for there to have been an internal revolt.
In 2008, just having the financial crash on their watch caused the Republicans to lose in a landslide; by modern standards. Arguably, Bush was not guilty of any specific actions or incompetence that may have resulted in the causing of the crash compared to Trump's actions in the run up to the pandemic.
Even stark incompetence during a pandemic resulting in over 300,000 deaths barely caused a shift of about 1% of the voters in the direction of Biden. Jokes about shooting on fifth avenue aside, it does seem there is nothing Trump could do that would lose him most of his supporters. It does seem to me that perhaps 30-40% of Americans might cheer on if Trump was able to overturn the election and usher in a more authoritarian regime.
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1945 Germany was uttely defeated and open to a complete transformation to a better model. 1918 Germany was just taking a breath before barrelling down an even darker path. Which do you think best resembles Trumpers?
not so in WWI.
we really needed a massive repudiation of the GOP for there to have been an internal revolt.
oh, well, here's hoping we can pull off 2 Senate seats out of the hat soon. I still can't believe Gideon and Cunningham lost their respective races.
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Originally posted by TopHatter View PostWhat Were You Thinking?
Don't pretend you're surprised
Pardons, threats, chaos, and coups. Merry Freaking Christmas
Near the end of the miniseries, Band of Brothers, the guys from Easy Company are shown riding in a convoy of trucks past a bedraggled column of German prisoners, some of whom are riding in carts drawn by horses.
Private David Webster is appalled by the scene and shouts at them:Hey, you! That's right, you stupid Kraut bastards! That's right! Say hello to Ford, and General fuckin' Motors! You stupid fascist pigs! Look at you! You have horses! What were you thinking? Dragging our asses half way around the world, interrupting our lives... For what, you ignorant, servile scum! What the fuck are we doing here?
I woke up this morning thinking about him.
Admittedly, the parallels are hardly exact, but as I’m looking over the clusterfuck of American conservativism on this almost-Christmas Eve, I feel a kinship with Webster.
What were you thinking? You cowardly, ignorant, servile scum?
It’s not like you were not warned. Again and again.
It’s not as if it wasn’t obvious from the very beginning who Donald Trump was. You had to know it would come to something like this.
Now look at you. You have Trump.
You’ve dragged this country into this place: more than 323,000 dead Americans, a president plotting to steal an election, whispers of military coups, pardons for crooks and war criminals, a potential constitutional crisis, and a possible government shutdown. And, after four interminable years, a nation that is dumber, crueler, and more divided.
For what? What the fuck are we doing here?
Let me repeat this: none of this is new. As far back as August 2015, I wrote that Trump was “a cartoon version of every left-wing media stereotype of the reactionary, nativist, misogynist right.”
Back then there was still time to say no. Some of us desperately made the case that he was a disaster. In May 2016, on the last appearance I will ever make on Fox News, I said:Donald Trump is a serial liar, a con man who mocks the disabled and women. He’s a narcissist and a bully, a man with no fixed principles who has the vocabulary of an emotionally insecure nine-year-old. So no, I don’t want to give him control of the IRS, the FBI, and the nuclear codes. That’s just me.
But you went along with it. You thought you could ride it out. You thought the tradeoffs were worth it. You thought you could Make America Great with this ignorant, petulant man-child.
One conservative commentator after another torched their reputations, if not their consciences, polishing the orange turds.
The anti-anti-Trumpers sat it out, or spent their time assuring us it wasn’t so bad and that the real threat was radical woke socialists like… Joe Biden. When they weren’t actually concocting elaborate defenses for Trump’s mendacity, they rationalized, or played an endless game of whataboutism.
Back in June, my colleague, Sarah Longwell asked the same question that’s nagging me today:Did they really think that putting a man bereft of character, decency, and empathy in charge of the country wouldn’t make a difference?
Did they really think that dismissing each instance of his racism, bullying, fecklessness, megalomania, corruption, lies, and stupidity it wouldn’t have a cumulative effect?
From the day he came down the escalator, Trump promised to burn it all down. And now Conservatism Inc. is surprised the country is on fire?
What did they think was going to happen?
So don’t pretend you are really surprised. You may be appalled by what you are seeing, but nothing that is happening now — the reckless attacks on constitutional norms, the flood of lies and conspiracy theories, the bullying, insults, or chaos — is inconsistent in any way with what you have known for years.
But you truckled, wheedled, and hoped he’d eat you last.
And here we are, you miserable bastards.
_________________
I really can't think of a better way of summing up my thoughts and attitude toward Trump's followers, Trump's apologists and Trump's sympathizers.
What the fuck did you think was going to happen?
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Originally posted by TopHatter View PostWhat Were You Thinking?
Don't pretend you're surprised
Pardons, threats, chaos, and coups. Merry Freaking Christmas
Near the end of the miniseries, Band of Brothers, the guys from Easy Company are shown riding in a convoy of trucks past a bedraggled column of German prisoners, some of whom are riding in carts drawn by horses.
Private David Webster is appalled by the scene and shouts at them:Hey, you! That's right, you stupid Kraut bastards! That's right! Say hello to Ford, and General fuckin' Motors! You stupid fascist pigs! Look at you! You have horses! What were you thinking? Dragging our asses half way around the world, interrupting our lives... For what, you ignorant, servile scum! What the fuck are we doing here?
I woke up this morning thinking about him.
Admittedly, the parallels are hardly exact, but as I’m looking over the clusterfuck of American conservativism on this almost-Christmas Eve, I feel a kinship with Webster.
What were you thinking? You cowardly, ignorant, servile scum?
It’s not like you were not warned. Again and again.
It’s not as if it wasn’t obvious from the very beginning who Donald Trump was. You had to know it would come to something like this.
Now look at you. You have Trump.
You’ve dragged this country into this place: more than 323,000 dead Americans, a president plotting to steal an election, whispers of military coups, pardons for crooks and war criminals, a potential constitutional crisis, and a possible government shutdown. And, after four interminable years, a nation that is dumber, crueler, and more divided.
For what? What the fuck are we doing here?
Let me repeat this: none of this is new. As far back as August 2015, I wrote that Trump was “a cartoon version of every left-wing media stereotype of the reactionary, nativist, misogynist right.”
Back then there was still time to say no. Some of us desperately made the case that he was a disaster. In May 2016, on the last appearance I will ever make on Fox News, I said:Donald Trump is a serial liar, a con man who mocks the disabled and women. He’s a narcissist and a bully, a man with no fixed principles who has the vocabulary of an emotionally insecure nine-year-old. So no, I don’t want to give him control of the IRS, the FBI, and the nuclear codes. That’s just me.
But you went along with it. You thought you could ride it out. You thought the tradeoffs were worth it. You thought you could Make America Great with this ignorant, petulant man-child.
One conservative commentator after another torched their reputations, if not their consciences, polishing the orange turds.
The anti-anti-Trumpers sat it out, or spent their time assuring us it wasn’t so bad and that the real threat was radical woke socialists like… Joe Biden. When they weren’t actually concocting elaborate defenses for Trump’s mendacity, they rationalized, or played an endless game of whataboutism.
Back in June, my colleague, Sarah Longwell asked the same question that’s nagging me today:Did they really think that putting a man bereft of character, decency, and empathy in charge of the country wouldn’t make a difference?
Did they really think that dismissing each instance of his racism, bullying, fecklessness, megalomania, corruption, lies, and stupidity it wouldn’t have a cumulative effect?
From the day he came down the escalator, Trump promised to burn it all down. And now Conservatism Inc. is surprised the country is on fire?
What did they think was going to happen?
So don’t pretend you are really surprised. You may be appalled by what you are seeing, but nothing that is happening now — the reckless attacks on constitutional norms, the flood of lies and conspiracy theories, the bullying, insults, or chaos — is inconsistent in any way with what you have known for years.
But you truckled, wheedled, and hoped he’d eat you last.
And here we are, you miserable bastards.
_________________
I really can't think of a better way of summing up my thoughts and attitude toward Trump's followers, Trump's apologists and Trump's sympathizers.
What the fuck did you think was going to happen?
The main problem with this article is the idea that people who supported Trump are 'appalled' by wha the has done. They aren't. With the exception of a handful they love him more than ever - the man got 12 million more votes than in 2016. Every single bad thing that has happened either doesn't exist or is the fault of Democrats and 'RINOs'. Zero exceptions.
He also picked the wrong World War. Trump supporters aren't defeated Nazi soldiers surveying a ruined & occupied homeland and finally realizing tghe ywere wrong. They are WW1 soldiers still loyal to the Kaiser and returning to an untouched homeland that has actually won some significant victories. Their heads are full of conspiracy theories about being stabbed in the back and they are ready to take up arms to put in place a dictator.
1945 Germany was uttely defeated and open to a complete transformation to a better model. 1918 Germany was just taking a breath before barrelling down an even darker path. Which do you think best resembles Trumpers?
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