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  • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
    Pfff,you might like and want to down a bit,but only if you also want to hide from reality.
    1.Those “innocents” were in fact enablers,because ALL violence,ALL the time is done by a minority,but is supported by the majority, morally,logistically,politically etc...
    As a logical consequence,civilian enablers were targeted en masse.
    2.One is responsible both for what he does,but also for what he fails to do.There was 0(zero) response from the local government in protecting the real innocents who had their properties destroyed or were themselves harassed or violently attacked.There is also zero demand from their electoral base(half the nation) to step down and let better men do the required cleaning.That means they ultimately agree or are forced to agree to this agenda.
    When it comes to leadership,a look at DNC will tell you all you need to know about their mindset.They’re on a radical path from which they have no intention of stepping down.

    3.Asty said a while back that the sides are set,there are no fence sitters to convince.I suspect he’s right.But if that’s the case,elections become pointless and democracy itself loses its meaning.All we have are 2 opposing and radical factions.No one will concede anything anymore.And it makes an unimaginable quite possible,i.e solving all differences in US by force.
    There wasnt zero response, there were failures. There wasn't no condeming of the violence on the left, there just wasn't enough. People are entitled to protest peacefully without being expected to stand up to violent looters, those standards and expectations are too high, perhaps noble, perhaps leading to more confusion and violence.

    I actually can't tell with the leadership, I am no fan of biden but I get the impression he wants the keep BLM at a distance and is operating politically. I think they all fear getting in front of a steamroller that is identity politics, wokism and cancel culture. Good politicians know going into the details is a risky strategy especially when emotions are raw.

    There are always fence sitters, although i agree fewer these days. Just look at the swings for BLM in Wisconsin, in went from +25 back to 0 in support (before Kenosha). Clearly these things can still move around. Or the tightening in the polls in the battleground states.

    Things have a habit of seeming worst in the present moment. It's very difficult to assess in the present moment.

    I want to reiterate that there has been a failure on the left to handle BLM rationally, I think there is more rationality hiding under the surface then people on the right realise, as the fear of cancel culture lurks for anyone who wants to offer an empirical analysis on the state of racism in the USA, so its best to remain silent.

    Comment


    • tantalus,

      I actually can't tell with the leadership, I am no fan of biden but I get the impression he wants the keep BLM at a distance and is operating politically. I think they all fear getting in front of a steamroller that is identity politics, wokism and cancel culture. Good politicians know going into the details is a risky strategy especially when emotions are raw.
      Biden is walking a tightrope.

      ie, Blacks are by far the most consistent voting bloc within the Democratic Party. Blacks are very supportive of the BLM movement.

      OTOH, Biden needs the support of suburban moderates, as well, which means supporting some of the reforms of called for by the BLM movement without talking about "defunding police", which is not politically popular.

      it's very rational.

      the GOP isn't even -trying- to balance it, which means they're doubling down on their existing base prior to the election.

      for instance, no one on the GOP side is talking about reviving the discussions over Sen Tim Scott (R-SC)'s very narrowly-written police reform bill, which are largely symbolic, empty reforms anyway...because their base rejects the idea that the system needs any reform, symbolic or not, in the first place.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

      Comment


      • Originally posted by astralis View Post
        tantalus,



        Biden is walking a tightrope.

        ie, Blacks are by far the most consistent voting bloc within the Democratic Party. Blacks are very supportive of the BLM movement.

        OTOH, Biden needs the support of suburban moderates, as well, which means supporting some of the reforms of called for by the BLM movement without talking about "defunding police", which is not politically popular.

        it's very rational.

        the GOP isn't even -trying- to balance it, which means they're doubling down on their existing base prior to the election.

        for instance, no one on the GOP side is talking about reviving the discussions over Sen Tim Scott (R-SC)'s very narrowly-written police reform bill, which are largely symbolic, empty reforms anyway...because their base rejects the idea that the system needs any reform, symbolic or not, in the first place.
        I understand this but thanks for the insight. The democats are a coalition so its always a tightrope for them. Trump actually covers up their diversity because everybody hates him, quite the unitier. The GOP have backed themselves into into a demographic corner and now have to double down on this for any chance to win. These are bad incentives, as they are polarizing the parties over the years and sucking out the middle. Trump has both aggravated this and covered up that underlying trend. But he didnt cause it.

        If you really think about it the language/rhetoric from the GOP it has moved on an historical timeline (the zeitgeist), Trump obscures this but the otherside are moving very quickly for them. That said I admit I am ignorant on the policy side regarding the republicans. I am not sure Biden actually believes there is seismic police reform needed. I would be interested to get your opinion/guess in how biden thinks about this differently from the bulk of the republicans on a policy level...

        Comment


        • tantalus,

          I am not sure Biden actually believes there is seismic police reform needed. I would be interested to get your opinion/guess in how biden thinks about this differently from the bulk of the republicans on a policy level...
          he doesn't -- he's a moderate and was a co-author of the 1994 crime bill. however, he also realizes that times have changed since 1994 and that Blacks now wield political power more effectively within the Dem coalition, so his policies reflect this as well.

          so now he's saying:

          "Reform means, at least the beginning, banning chokeholds, stopping transferring military weapons of war to the police departments, creating a model use of force standard and holding all police to the high standard," said Biden.

          "[In] my first 100 days I'm going to create a national police oversight commission with civil rights leaders, police officers, police chiefs and experts in the criminal justice and police to do police reform, get every police department in the country to fully review their hiring training and de-escalation practices,"
          that's immensely different from what the GOP proposes. under AG Sessions' previous direction, police departments are once again getting military equipment and DOJ has been instructed to pull back on police investigations and civil rights lawsuits.

          BTW, what I find to be amusing is that police departments all over America are being defunded -right now- because the GOP refuses to release emergency aid money to states for the pandemic.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • “The democats are a coalition ” … ?

            Are you suggesting that the GOP is a monolithic bloc, and “Never Trump” never existed? Or, that the Log Cabin Republicans don't count?

            The Trumpet has divided the GOP more deeply than the evangelicals ever did, whereas Biden is dead center middle-of-the-road of the major political party that owns the middle of the road, and the lanes on either side.
            Trust me?
            I'm an economist!

            Comment


            • DOR,

              Are you suggesting that the GOP is a monolithic bloc, and “Never Trump” never existed? Or, that the Log Cabin Republicans don't count?

              The Trumpet has divided the GOP more deeply than the evangelicals ever did, whereas Biden is dead center middle-of-the-road of the major political party that owns the middle of the road, and the lanes on either side.
              i think it's fair to say the GOP has been traditionally been considerably more unified than the Dems. you're right in that Trump has divided certain sections of the GOP, but even then I don't foresee any major defections-- nothing like the drop-off in support between Obama and HRC in 2016 among the Dems.

              main effect of Biden's outreach to the GOP is probably going to be among GOP-leaning independents, versus actual Republicans.
              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

              Comment


              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                that is also true in the example above -- there was video, yet the police commander defended the officer's actions, said it was a "matter of life and death", and blamed the dog's owner.

                the officer hasn't been fired, either.

                no investigation yet, and the only reason why there may be one is because the video went viral.
                For what? Pay the woman max $1000 (if that) and get it over with. It ain't worth the manpower to do the investigation. Dogs are property and there is an arguement that this woman's property damaged a $60,000 city property but since it ain't worth the manpower to investigate, let alone goto court over this, pay the woman for what the dog is worth.
                Chimo

                Comment


                • that's my point.

                  the police commander is making an obvious lie (really, a matter of life and death?) to protect his people over even the prospect of a mild punishment or a small payout.

                  there's significant incentives for the police to cover up and outright lie about their actions.

                  that's why for cases like the Blake case, I want to see the results of a full investigation prior to making expansive claims about police conduct.
                  There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                    tantalus,



                    he doesn't -- he's a moderate and was a co-author of the 1994 crime bill. however, he also realizes that times have changed since 1994 and that Blacks now wield political power more effectively within the Dem coalition, so his policies reflect this as well.

                    so now he's saying:



                    that's immensely different from what the GOP proposes. under AG Sessions' previous direction, police departments are once again getting military equipment and DOJ has been instructed to pull back on police investigations and civil rights lawsuits.

                    BTW, what I find to be amusing is that police departments all over America are being defunded -right now- because the GOP refuses to release emergency aid money to states for the pandemic.
                    It seems to me that Bill had some bad mistakes but thats the story of another day.

                    I think Biden has the right approach here. For some not exactly very different than some republicans, but the tone, whic is important, is softer and more unifying.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                      “The democats are a coalition ” … ?

                      Are you suggesting that the GOP is a monolithic bloc, and “Never Trump” never existed? Or, that the Log Cabin Republicans don't count?

                      The Trumpet has divided the GOP more deeply than the evangelicals ever did, whereas Biden is dead center middle-of-the-road of the major political party that owns the middle of the road, and the lanes on either side.
                      No ofcourse not, broad strokes, but the dem party is way more diverse. That's a good thing and not just politically, socially too, but its going to be hard work.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                        that's my point.

                        the police commander is making an obvious lie (really, a matter of life and death?) to protect his people over even the prospect of a mild punishment or a small payout.

                        there's significant incentives for the police to cover up and outright lie about their actions.
                        I'm not following you. Then, why would you want the K9 Officer fired? K9 Officers are just as expensive as the dogs themselves. The attacking dog reached through the fence and grabbed hold of her partner and she reacted. At worst, she was defending an expensive piece of city and hard to get piece of city property (you have to order a K9 dog years in advance).

                        Originally posted by astralis View Post
                        that's why for cases like the Blake case, I want to see the results of a full investigation prior to making expansive claims about police conduct.
                        What more evidence is there?
                        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 31 Aug 20,, 22:09.
                        Chimo

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          Telling me that I'm on larf is sign for open season.
                          Sir, no it is not. If you have a problem with what someone has said to you, then you need to report the post, not fire insults back.
                          My fellow Americans, our long national nightmare is over.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                            There wasnt zero response, there were failures. There wasn't no condeming of the violence on the left, there just wasn't enough. People are entitled to protest peacefully without being expected to stand up to violent looters, those standards and expectations are too high, perhaps noble, perhaps leading to more confusion and violence.

                            I actually can't tell with the leadership, I am no fan of biden but I get the impression he wants the keep BLM at a distance and is operating politically. I think they all fear getting in front of a steamroller that is identity politics, wokism and cancel culture. Good politicians know going into the details is a risky strategy especially when emotions are raw.

                            There are always fence sitters, although i agree fewer these days. Just look at the swings for BLM in Wisconsin, in went from +25 back to 0 in support (before Kenosha). Clearly these things can still move around. Or the tightening in the polls in the battleground states.

                            Things have a habit of seeming worst in the present moment. It's very difficult to assess in the present moment.

                            I want to reiterate that there has been a failure on the left to handle BLM rationally, I think there is more rationality hiding under the surface then people on the right realise, as the fear of cancel culture lurks for anyone who wants to offer an empirical analysis on the state of racism in the USA, so its best to remain silent.
                            1. Individual exceptions don’t matter.Politics is about building a critical mass.The critical mass conflates protests with riots.
                            2.As a matter of principle,the cancel culture has the same effect as the old political police had in the commie block.It’s just by a private network of large numbers of fanatics,instead of a smaller number of government officials.Time,place differ but the end result is silence via fear of consequences for one’s livelihood and family.
                            It’s chilling how fast things moved the last few years,but the nature of this beast is all to familiar for those in the know.
                            3.The issue with Dem leadership is that it did everything it could to increase radicalization.The result being increased radicalization on the right.Without starting to brake,this trains will eventually collide.

                            4.Trump may have a chance to win this,but is already irelevant.No side likely will admit defeat and that will make the country as a whole ungovernable.They will both accuse each of cheating,fraud and collusion with foreign powers.
                            Those who know don't speak
                            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                            Comment


                            • I saw that stuff but it wasn't pertinent to the day in question and certainly not to the first 150 seconds as the whole encounter isn't on video. The police just released their version of events which are at odds with what a witness saw from his house. Police say call was about car theft/disturbance in progress while witness said Blake drove up in his car and women were causing the domestic disturbance. Huge variance there and with only maybe 20 last seconds of a video leaving me at 50/50 as to who to believe. Too much has happened over the last 40 years to give the police the benefit of the doubt anymore.

                              Comment


                              • Well some facts.

                                There was a 911 call.
                                The police did know of Blake's presence ... and hence who he was and came with two cars instead of one.
                                There is a warrant out for Blake.


                                Sex assault charges filed against Jacob Blake in July prompted police to respond before shooting: union report | Fox News


                                A 911 call Aug. 23 alerted them that Blake, 29, was at the home of his alleged victim. The officers on the scene knew he had an open warrant for felony sexual assault, according to dispatch records and the Kenosha Professional Police Association.
                                I'm sure the 911 call could easily be verified since they are all recorded and timestamped.
                                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 01 Sep 20,, 08:13.
                                Chimo

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