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  • tantalus,

    I am not sure Biden actually believes there is seismic police reform needed. I would be interested to get your opinion/guess in how biden thinks about this differently from the bulk of the republicans on a policy level...
    he doesn't -- he's a moderate and was a co-author of the 1994 crime bill. however, he also realizes that times have changed since 1994 and that Blacks now wield political power more effectively within the Dem coalition, so his policies reflect this as well.

    so now he's saying:

    "Reform means, at least the beginning, banning chokeholds, stopping transferring military weapons of war to the police departments, creating a model use of force standard and holding all police to the high standard," said Biden.

    "[In] my first 100 days I'm going to create a national police oversight commission with civil rights leaders, police officers, police chiefs and experts in the criminal justice and police to do police reform, get every police department in the country to fully review their hiring training and de-escalation practices,"
    that's immensely different from what the GOP proposes. under AG Sessions' previous direction, police departments are once again getting military equipment and DOJ has been instructed to pull back on police investigations and civil rights lawsuits.

    BTW, what I find to be amusing is that police departments all over America are being defunded -right now- because the GOP refuses to release emergency aid money to states for the pandemic.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

    Comment


    • “The democats are a coalition ” … ?

      Are you suggesting that the GOP is a monolithic bloc, and “Never Trump” never existed? Or, that the Log Cabin Republicans don't count?

      The Trumpet has divided the GOP more deeply than the evangelicals ever did, whereas Biden is dead center middle-of-the-road of the major political party that owns the middle of the road, and the lanes on either side.
      Trust me?
      I'm an economist!

      Comment


      • DOR,

        Are you suggesting that the GOP is a monolithic bloc, and “Never Trump” never existed? Or, that the Log Cabin Republicans don't count?

        The Trumpet has divided the GOP more deeply than the evangelicals ever did, whereas Biden is dead center middle-of-the-road of the major political party that owns the middle of the road, and the lanes on either side.
        i think it's fair to say the GOP has been traditionally been considerably more unified than the Dems. you're right in that Trump has divided certain sections of the GOP, but even then I don't foresee any major defections-- nothing like the drop-off in support between Obama and HRC in 2016 among the Dems.

        main effect of Biden's outreach to the GOP is probably going to be among GOP-leaning independents, versus actual Republicans.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

        Comment


        • Originally posted by astralis View Post
          that is also true in the example above -- there was video, yet the police commander defended the officer's actions, said it was a "matter of life and death", and blamed the dog's owner.

          the officer hasn't been fired, either.

          no investigation yet, and the only reason why there may be one is because the video went viral.
          For what? Pay the woman max $1000 (if that) and get it over with. It ain't worth the manpower to do the investigation. Dogs are property and there is an arguement that this woman's property damaged a $60,000 city property but since it ain't worth the manpower to investigate, let alone goto court over this, pay the woman for what the dog is worth.
          Chimo

          Comment


          • that's my point.

            the police commander is making an obvious lie (really, a matter of life and death?) to protect his people over even the prospect of a mild punishment or a small payout.

            there's significant incentives for the police to cover up and outright lie about their actions.

            that's why for cases like the Blake case, I want to see the results of a full investigation prior to making expansive claims about police conduct.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              tantalus,



              he doesn't -- he's a moderate and was a co-author of the 1994 crime bill. however, he also realizes that times have changed since 1994 and that Blacks now wield political power more effectively within the Dem coalition, so his policies reflect this as well.

              so now he's saying:



              that's immensely different from what the GOP proposes. under AG Sessions' previous direction, police departments are once again getting military equipment and DOJ has been instructed to pull back on police investigations and civil rights lawsuits.

              BTW, what I find to be amusing is that police departments all over America are being defunded -right now- because the GOP refuses to release emergency aid money to states for the pandemic.
              It seems to me that Bill had some bad mistakes but thats the story of another day.

              I think Biden has the right approach here. For some not exactly very different than some republicans, but the tone, whic is important, is softer and more unifying.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                “The democats are a coalition ” … ?

                Are you suggesting that the GOP is a monolithic bloc, and “Never Trump” never existed? Or, that the Log Cabin Republicans don't count?

                The Trumpet has divided the GOP more deeply than the evangelicals ever did, whereas Biden is dead center middle-of-the-road of the major political party that owns the middle of the road, and the lanes on either side.
                No ofcourse not, broad strokes, but the dem party is way more diverse. That's a good thing and not just politically, socially too, but its going to be hard work.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  that's my point.

                  the police commander is making an obvious lie (really, a matter of life and death?) to protect his people over even the prospect of a mild punishment or a small payout.

                  there's significant incentives for the police to cover up and outright lie about their actions.
                  I'm not following you. Then, why would you want the K9 Officer fired? K9 Officers are just as expensive as the dogs themselves. The attacking dog reached through the fence and grabbed hold of her partner and she reacted. At worst, she was defending an expensive piece of city and hard to get piece of city property (you have to order a K9 dog years in advance).

                  Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  that's why for cases like the Blake case, I want to see the results of a full investigation prior to making expansive claims about police conduct.
                  What more evidence is there?
                  Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 31 Aug 20,, 22:09.
                  Chimo

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    Telling me that I'm on larf is sign for open season.
                    Sir, no it is not. If you have a problem with what someone has said to you, then you need to report the post, not fire insults back.
                    Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                      There wasnt zero response, there were failures. There wasn't no condeming of the violence on the left, there just wasn't enough. People are entitled to protest peacefully without being expected to stand up to violent looters, those standards and expectations are too high, perhaps noble, perhaps leading to more confusion and violence.

                      I actually can't tell with the leadership, I am no fan of biden but I get the impression he wants the keep BLM at a distance and is operating politically. I think they all fear getting in front of a steamroller that is identity politics, wokism and cancel culture. Good politicians know going into the details is a risky strategy especially when emotions are raw.

                      There are always fence sitters, although i agree fewer these days. Just look at the swings for BLM in Wisconsin, in went from +25 back to 0 in support (before Kenosha). Clearly these things can still move around. Or the tightening in the polls in the battleground states.

                      Things have a habit of seeming worst in the present moment. It's very difficult to assess in the present moment.

                      I want to reiterate that there has been a failure on the left to handle BLM rationally, I think there is more rationality hiding under the surface then people on the right realise, as the fear of cancel culture lurks for anyone who wants to offer an empirical analysis on the state of racism in the USA, so its best to remain silent.
                      1. Individual exceptions don’t matter.Politics is about building a critical mass.The critical mass conflates protests with riots.
                      2.As a matter of principle,the cancel culture has the same effect as the old political police had in the commie block.It’s just by a private network of large numbers of fanatics,instead of a smaller number of government officials.Time,place differ but the end result is silence via fear of consequences for one’s livelihood and family.
                      It’s chilling how fast things moved the last few years,but the nature of this beast is all to familiar for those in the know.
                      3.The issue with Dem leadership is that it did everything it could to increase radicalization.The result being increased radicalization on the right.Without starting to brake,this trains will eventually collide.

                      4.Trump may have a chance to win this,but is already irelevant.No side likely will admit defeat and that will make the country as a whole ungovernable.They will both accuse each of cheating,fraud and collusion with foreign powers.
                      Those who know don't speak
                      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                      Comment


                      • I saw that stuff but it wasn't pertinent to the day in question and certainly not to the first 150 seconds as the whole encounter isn't on video. The police just released their version of events which are at odds with what a witness saw from his house. Police say call was about car theft/disturbance in progress while witness said Blake drove up in his car and women were causing the domestic disturbance. Huge variance there and with only maybe 20 last seconds of a video leaving me at 50/50 as to who to believe. Too much has happened over the last 40 years to give the police the benefit of the doubt anymore.

                        Comment


                        • Well some facts.

                          There was a 911 call.
                          The police did know of Blake's presence ... and hence who he was and came with two cars instead of one.
                          There is a warrant out for Blake.


                          Sex assault charges filed against Jacob Blake in July prompted police to respond before shooting: union report | Fox News


                          A 911 call Aug. 23 alerted them that Blake, 29, was at the home of his alleged victim. The officers on the scene knew he had an open warrant for felony sexual assault, according to dispatch records and the Kenosha Professional Police Association.
                          I'm sure the 911 call could easily be verified since they are all recorded and timestamped.
                          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 01 Sep 20,, 08:13.
                          Chimo

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                            The job was to STOP HIM. Again, after demonstrating that he can fight off extreme hurt, YOU DON'T STOP SHOOTING UNTIL HE STOPS MOVING.
                            No, an arrest warrant is to arrest someone. It is a policing action not a military one.

                            Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                            Oh Horse Puckey!

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police...use_by_country

                            Simple maths tell me that there are more than 20 cases when European police firearms are used that they emptied their mags.

                            And IT IS STANDARD PROCEDURE in ALL WESTERN COUNTRIES to investigate ALL Police firearms discharges and the Policemen themselves put on Administrative Leave (as opposed to a suspension without pay) so that the Policemen themselves do not corrupt the investigation either willfully or ignorantly. They are still bound to and portected by the very police departments they work for. Suspension without pay means that they are not going to pay for dirty cops.
                            Difference is in Europe there is a requirement for the use of reasonable force.

                            Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                            There is a BIG difference between an EDUCATED opinion and WILD ASSED assumptions. Guess which one yours fall under.
                            If I shot an unarmed man seven times in the back could I claim the use of reasonable force in self defence? Not a hope. In my view the Officers (who have actually been put on 'administrative leave') clearly used excessive force.

                            Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                            Here's one that has been drilled into me since the first time I held a firearm. Never point your firearm in a direction unless you're intending to shoot in that direction. Always be aware of your shot. Be aware if you shoot, you're shooting to kill.
                            You were trained as a soldier not a Police Officer.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                              No, an arrest warrant is to arrest someone. It is a policing action not a military one.
                              And when the perp resist arrest?

                              Originally posted by snapper View Post
                              Difference is in Europe there is a requirement for the use of reasonable force.
                              So emptying a mag is reasonable use of force then.

                              Originally posted by snapper View Post
                              If I shot an unarmed man seven times in the back could I claim the use of reasonable force in self defence? Not a hope. In my view the Officers (who have actually been put on 'administrative leave') clearly used excessive force.
                              Come off it, you have ZERO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT FIREARMS, else you would not be posting this bullshit. I'll bet you 10 to one that you could not even use a bellygun to put 5 rounds in a guy at point blank range.

                              Whatif the man is a demonstrated threat who has shown that he could walk off wounds?



                              Four wounds and the perp still was able to wrestle the pistol away from the mother and he then took another round from the daughter. The cops found the man on the way to the hospital.

                              YOU DON'T STOP SHOOTING UNTIL THE MAN STOPS MOVING.

                              BTW, Blake ain't dead!

                              Originally posted by snapper View Post
                              You were trained as a soldier not a Police Officer.
                              I'm a hunter! I know what can drop a deer, moose, bear, and hence, a man, and I'm telling you flat out unless it's a head shot, YOU CANNOT COUNT ON SIDEARMS TO STOP A MAN IN HIS TRACKS WITH ONE SINGLE SHOT!

                              You don't stop shooting until the perp stops moving.
                              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 01 Sep 20,, 08:05.
                              Chimo

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                                And when the perp resist arrest?
                                Persist/call for back up.

                                Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                                So emptying a mag is reasonable use of force then.
                                No it is not; all people even if there is an arrest warrant out for them, are innocent until proven guilty. A Police Officer is a law enforcement officer not an executioner.

                                Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                                Come off it, you have ZERO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT FIREARMS, else you would not be posting this bullshit. I'll bet you 10 to one that you could not even use a bellygun to put 5 rounds in a guy at point blank range.
                                Admittedly I am not a very good shot but that is not the issue.


                                Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                                Whatif the man is a demonstrated threat who has shown that he could walk off wounds?



                                Four wounds and the perp still was able to wrestle the pistol away from the mother and he then took another round from the daughter. The cops found the man on the way to the hospital.
                                Defending your private property (or a business you own) is not what the Police Officers were doing. There was a case in England some time ago when some old guy disturbed a couple of burglars who'd broken into his home; somehow he 'defended his property' (I forget if he used a knife or a gun) and one the burglars ended up dead; the old guy got charged.

                                Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                                YOU DON'T STOP SHOOTING UNTIL THE MAN STOPS MOVING.

                                BTW, Blake ain't dead!

                                I'm a hunter! I know what can drop a deer, moose, bear, and hence, a man, and I'm telling you flat out unless it's a head shot, YOU CANNOT COUNT ON SIDEARMS TO STOP A MAN IN HIS TRACKS WITH ONE SINGLE SHOT!

                                You don't stop shooting until the perp stops moving.
                                I believe he is paralyzed? A Police Officer doing his duty is not hunting an animal or in this case an armed enemy as a soldier might do in war.

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