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  • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I'm surprised Pence hasn't been replaced by surfgun yet. He certainly has the schtick down...
    Trump/Surfgun 2020? Yeah I could see that.
    Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
      First ID's have not been released by the police as to the victims. So where do you get your info from? Citations needed.
      Noting that your post was dated 27 Aug, and the snippet of info quoted below was dated 28 Aug, and it is now still 29 Aug there in Wisconsin as I write this here in Massachusetts at a little before 1 AM on 30 Aug.

      Originally posted by ChicagoSunTimes
      ....Anthony Huber, 26, of Silver Lake, Wisconsin, and Joseph “Jojo” Rosenbaum, 36, of Kenosha, were killed, and Gaige Grosskreutz, 26, of West Allis, Wisconsin, was wounded....

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/chicago...ro-jacob-blake
      .
      .
      .

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
        Ahh, that makes it right. Thanks for clearing it up. Hopefully you don't end up a convicted felon as you would then deserve the same fate you just gave your consent to.
        Nope, but lets not pretend the 2 killed and 1 wounded were good guys either. They were in violation of a curfew, and the first killed, the sex offender whose very walking the streets was a felony since he had absconded attacked the shooter as he was talking to a reporter and then proceeded to chase him down the street. The second tried to kill the shooter by hitting him in the head with a skate board as he was on the ground after tripping while trying to retreat. The third was armed and committing a felony by being armed.... He brought a gun to a protest he wasn't legally allowed to have or be at.



        and that matters because............................?
        Because size difference and numbers matter in self defense claims.

        The timeline as established by the criminal complaint and NYT
        Shooter is talking to reporter and confronted by 1
        Shooter jukes and tries to evade 1 and is followed and has a bag thrown at him.
        Shooter runs away someone in crowd fires a gun
        Shooter turns sees 1 closing on him and fires 4 times, 1 is down, reporter stops following and tries to render aid to 1
        Shooter calls someone saying I just killed someone keeps retreating
        Shooter trips and falls and 2 hits him with a skateboard, shooter fires once striking center of mass and 2 goes down
        3 kicks shooter in the head, shooter turns and disarms 3 who was holding a gun.

        At every point the shooter was trying to retreat. Under WI law you can't claim self defense if in active commission of a crime or fleeing justice. However the initial charge (minor with a dangerous weapon) is only a misdemeanor charge and under WI law (939.48 (2) (a)(b) his retreating re-established his right of self defense.

        Also WI has an exception to the long gun rule for minors. I've heard it is a poorly written clause on hunting licenses but haven't been able to track that one down. If there is an exception and the judge and/or then jury agree that it applies then there is no predicate weapons crime, just a curfew violation same as 1,2, and 3. If the exception does not apply then the jury has to decided if 1 was murdered or killed in self defense. The gun shot near the shooter by the crowd is an awfully powerful argument to state of mind. Hopefully the person who fired in the crowd can be identified and charged with murder since firing a gun in a crowd other than self defense is a felony, and any deaths that result from a felony act are murder. If 1 is murder then 2 and 3 are crimes because the shooter is not retreating but trying to escape justice. If 1 is self defense then 2 and 3 are self defense because the Shooter was trying to retreat.

        Comment


        • Also Kenosha is burning and people are dead because the police shot a dude with a warrant for sexual assault after said dude violated a restraining order, resisted arrest, tried to go for a knife and if allowed to escape would have endangered three children while fleeing.... Seems to satisfy the rule set out in Tennessee v Garner 471 U.S. 1 (1985). An armed violent suspect trying to actively create a more dangerous situation to law enforcement, the public and the kids in that minivan... Yeah not a lot of tears for him. But then I am not gonna break in to my exes home, sexually assault her, take her kids and her keys either so I can't really relate to him.

          Assume given the political bent of WAB we are not going to mention the person killed in Portland last night? I mean only 1 dead so that leaves the bulk of the unrest "mostly peaceful".

          Comment


          • Originally posted by zraver View Post
            Nope, but lets not pretend the 2 killed and 1 wounded were good guys either. They were in violation of a curfew, and the first killed, the sex offender whose very walking the streets was a felony since he had absconded attacked the shooter as he was talking to a reporter and then proceeded to chase him down the street. The second tried to kill the shooter by hitting him in the head with a skate board as he was on the ground after tripping while trying to retreat. The third was armed and committing a felony by being armed.... He brought a gun to a protest he wasn't legally allowed to have or be at.





            Because size difference and numbers matter in self defense claims.

            The timeline as established by the criminal complaint and NYT
            Shooter is talking to reporter and confronted by 1
            Shooter jukes and tries to evade 1 and is followed and has a bag thrown at him.
            Shooter runs away someone in crowd fires a gun
            Shooter turns sees 1 closing on him and fires 4 times, 1 is down, reporter stops following and tries to render aid to 1
            Shooter calls someone saying I just killed someone keeps retreating
            Shooter trips and falls and 2 hits him with a skateboard, shooter fires once striking center of mass and 2 goes down
            3 kicks shooter in the head, shooter turns and disarms 3 who was holding a gun.

            At every point the shooter was trying to retreat. Under WI law you can't claim self defense if in active commission of a crime or fleeing justice. However the initial charge (minor with a dangerous weapon) is only a misdemeanor charge and under WI law (939.48 (2) (a)(b) his retreating re-established his right of self defense.

            Also WI has an exception to the long gun rule for minors. I've heard it is a poorly written clause on hunting licenses but haven't been able to track that one down. If there is an exception and the judge and/or then jury agree that it applies then there is no predicate weapons crime, just a curfew violation same as 1,2, and 3. If the exception does not apply then the jury has to decided if 1 was murdered or killed in self defense. The gun shot near the shooter by the crowd is an awfully powerful argument to state of mind. Hopefully the person who fired in the crowd can be identified and charged with murder since firing a gun in a crowd other than self defense is a felony, and any deaths that result from a felony act are murder. If 1 is murder then 2 and 3 are crimes because the shooter is not retreating but trying to escape justice. If 1 is self defense then 2 and 3 are self defense because the Shooter was trying to retreat.
            I saw the kid being interviewed just before it happent. He didnt look like someone out to shoot black people. i think it was just a foolish kid who got in over his head. It's a tragedy for all involved. America has so many guns iam amazed these things don't happen more often just as a a function of probability.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by zraver View Post
              Also Kenosha is burning and people are dead because the police shot a dude with a warrant for sexual assault after said dude violated a restraining order, resisted arrest, tried to go for a knife and if allowed to escape would have endangered three children while fleeing.... Seems to satisfy the rule set out in Tennessee v Garner 471 U.S. 1 (1985). An armed violent suspect trying to actively create a more dangerous situation to law enforcement, the public and the kids in that minivan... Yeah not a lot of tears for him. But then I am not gonna break in to my exes home, sexually assault her, take her kids and her keys either so I can't really relate to him.

              Assume given the political bent of WAB we are not going to mention the person killed in Portland last night? I mean only 1 dead so that leaves the bulk of the unrest "mostly peaceful".
              Its possible to condemn the burning of small businesses, the murder of a trump supporter,s and protestors while ackowledging that most people are protesting peacefully. Its also possible to be supportive of the role of the police in society while also trying to improve their policing. They are shooting too many americans in the back. I was not aware of any knife involved, but if true that changs the narrative meaningfully. I agree that currently that the discussion around policing has become decoupled from rational analysis.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by zraver View Post

                Assume given the political bent of WAB we are not going to mention the person killed in Portland last night? I mean only 1 dead so that leaves the bulk of the unrest "mostly peaceful".
                I get the impression you are saying mostly with irony :-). But is that not a relevent fact. The nuance of all this is important and the desire for simple narratives damaging. Otherwise every single event will trigger chaos and polarization.

                Comment


                • Cops do shoot too many people, Blake was not among that number. I have not seen the Left condemn the arson and looting. I keep hearing "mostly peaceful". No, once the fires and looting start its not peaceful at all. Someone with stage 3 cancer is not mostly cancer free. Someone whose lost 2 liters of blood is not mostly still full of blood.... Mostly means not at all. Either something is or it is not it cannot be both at the same time.


                  https://www.fox6now.com/news/doj-ide...rom-floorboard

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                    I get the impression you are saying mostly with irony :-). But is that not a relevent fact. The nuance of all this is important and the desire for simple narratives damaging. Otherwise every single event will trigger chaos and polarization.
                    Yes with irony, the Left only condemns violence against them, not the violence they direct or support against others. Dude tried to assassinate the RNC Congressional Baseball team was met with mass silence on the Left, thousands of people and police officers assaulted by Antifa... silence. Hundreds of businesses burnded, described as mostly peaceful. The Left is far too comfortable with political violence as a tactic. Its going to backfire on them. Either it will cause a response in kind or hopefully, a mass rejection by the public.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      Cops do shoot too many people, Blake was not among that number. I have not seen the Left condemn the arson and looting. I keep hearing "mostly peaceful". No, once the fires and looting start its not peaceful at all. Someone with stage 3 cancer is not mostly cancer free. Someone whose lost 2 liters of blood is not mostly still full of blood.... Mostly means not at all. Either something is or it is not it cannot be both at the same time.


                      https://www.fox6now.com/news/doj-ide...rom-floorboard
                      Ask yourself this. Develop a classificiation system for the media, imagine perfect data collection. What % of protestors have to be peaceful for "mostly peaceful" to be an acceptable term?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        Yes with irony, the Left only condemns violence against them, not the violence they direct or support against others. Dude tried to assassinate the RNC Congressional Baseball team was met with mass silence on the Left, thousands of people and police officers assaulted by Antifa... silence. Hundreds of businesses burnded, described as mostly peaceful. The Left is far too comfortable with political violence as a tactic. Its going to backfire on them. Either it will cause a response in kind or hopefully, a mass rejection by the public.
                        I don't know how much violence Antifa engage in.

                        I agree there has been far too much silence with regard arson and looting that has accompanied peaceful BLM protests. Far too much.

                        It could very well backfire.

                        I don't think there is widespread comfort with violence, but there is widespread discomfort with the risk of being seen to disagree with BLM. Somehow people have gotten to the point where they find it easier to say nothing for fear of conflation. This comes out of identity politics, cancel culture, wokism becoming so powerful that we have lost the nuance. It really is worth trying to see the distinction here because otherwise you risk misunderstanding the motives of people you are not aligned with.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                          Ask yourself this. Develop a classificiation system for the media, imagine perfect data collection. What % of protestors have to be peaceful for "mostly peaceful" to be an acceptable term?
                          If it was peaceful, you'd see the peaceful ones subduing the looters and arsonists and turning them over to the cops, or at least calling them out and putting them on social media blast. We saw that in several instances, were rabble rousers got shown the door. Where the "good" protesters say and do nothing then de facto it is not a peaceful protest. Hell, if you show up to protest and you see a bunch of white kids wearing black and carrying bags to hold masks, carrying shields, wearing helmets etc you know shits about to go down and there is no peaceful intent and so if you stay you are co-signing the bullshit.

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                          • The smokescreen is getting too thick.

                            It does not matter one bit if the police or some random teenager with an illegal gun kill someone who it then labelled as "not a nice person."
                            "Not nice" isn't a death sentence.
                            Trust me?
                            I'm an economist!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                              The smokescreen is getting too thick.

                              It does not matter one bit if the police or some random teenager with an illegal gun kill someone who it then labelled as "not a nice person."
                              "Not nice" isn't a death sentence.
                              Now who is throwing the smoke? "Not nice" is also not an shield to commit violence and then as a legal defecne justification against violence that is returned with overwhelming force.
                              Chimo

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                              • 'Reasonable' self defence I think comes in here.

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