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The 2019-2020 Impeachment, Trial and Acquittal of Donald John Trump

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  • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
    Sadly not at all remarkable, even on WAB. The short thread below has that in spades. Its like some sort of Dunning Krueger Effect competition. Fair to say I have stopped hoping for better from any of those involved.

    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=67235
    Oh good god...And now this is me throwing up my hands in despair.
    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

    Comment


    • Trump Asking Foreign Countries For Help Against Biden Violates Law, Election Commission Chair Warns

      Minutes after President Trump called on the governments of China and Ukraine to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden, a potential rival in the 2020 presidential campaign, the chair of the Federal Election Commission posted a reminder that seeking foreign political help is illegal.

      In a tweet posted Thursday morning, Ellen Weintraub struck an incredulous tone.

      @EllenLWeintraub
      I would not have thought that I needed to say this.
      Trump has said he wanted Ukraine to investigate “corruption” by Biden and his son Hunter, but the former vice president is a leading candidate to oppose him for reelection, and as his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, has admitted, damaging Biden’s reputation is his actual purpose.

      Weintraub is a Democrat, according to the FEC website, but was appointed to the commission in 2002, under President George W. Bush. Her nominal term expired more than a decade ago, but she has remained in the post as successive administrations have found it impossible to choose and confirm a successor.

      On June 13, Weintraub originally posted a statement clarifying the illegality of candidates receiving election assistance from foreign governments after Trump told ABC News he would not alert the FBI if he was approached by a country such as Russia with damaging information about his 2020 opponent, and he would consider the information.

      “It’s not an interference, they have information — I think I’d take it,” Trump told ABC. “If I thought there was something wrong, I’d go maybe to the FBI — if I thought there was something wrong. But when somebody comes up with oppo research, right, they come up with oppo research, ‘Oh, let’s call the FBI.’ The FBI doesn’t have enough agents to take care of it. When you go and talk, honestly, to congressmen, they all do it, they always have, and that’s the way it is. It’s called oppo research.”

      Candidates often look for damaging information on their opponents, but generally from published stories, court papers or other domestic sources, not from foreign governments.

      In response to Trump’s interview in June, Weintraub took the opportunity to remind the nation that what Trump had proposed doing violated U.S. law.

      “Let me make something 100% clear to the American public and anyone running for public office: It is illegal for any person to solicit, accept, or receive anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a U.S. election,” Weintraub wrote. “This is not a novel concept.“

      On Thursday, Trump was again asked what he was specifically seeking on a July 25 call when he asked Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky for “a favor.”

      “Well, I would think if they were honest about it, they’d start a major investigation into the Bidens,” Trump responded. “It’s a very simple answer. They should investigate the Bidens because how does a company that’s newly formed and all these companies, and by the way, likewise, China should start an investigation into the Bidens because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine. So I would say with President Zelensky, if it were me, I would recommend they start an investigation into the Bidens, because nobody has any doubt that they weren’t crooked.”

      House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff, who has taken the lead on the impeachment inquiry against Trump, echoed Weintraub’s warning.

      @RepAdamSchiff
      The President cannot use the power of his office to pressure foreign leaders to investigate his political opponents.
      His rant this morning reinforces the urgency of our work.
      America is a Republic, if we can keep it.
      Trump has tasked Attorney General William Barr to reach out to several foreign governments to investigate the role U.S. intelligence agencies played in the 2016 presidential election as a way to counter the narrative that Trump was aided by Russian interference. Special counsel Robert Mueller indicted 12 Russian intelligence officers for their efforts to promote Trump’s candidacy, including hacking into and stealing files on a server used by the Democratic National Committee.

      Joe and Hunter Biden are not under investigation in the U.S.
      ______________

      Yes Donald, just keep talking. Get in front of those cameras and keep talking. Stay on Twitter and keep tweeting. Do what you do best.

      Also, if the Bidens did something wrong...why aren't you investigating them? There's this thing called the Department of Justice. The head of this Department is your own personal lawyer. Ever think of asking him to start an investigation?
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

      Comment


      • Trump threats complicate negotiations for whistleblower to testify to Congress

        WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump's public attacks on the unidentified whistleblower at the center of a Democratic-led impeachment inquiry are complicating negotiations for the person to testify to Congress, according to three people familiar with the matter.

        Trump has suggested the whistleblower committed treason, prompting concerns among Democrats on the U.S. House of Representatives Intelligence Committee that testifying could raise the risk of exposure.

        As a result, one question being mulled is whether the person's identity should be kept secret even from lawmakers on the panel, the sources said.

        White House officials were not immediately available for comment. The whistleblower's lawyer Andrew Bakaj did not respond to a request for comment.

        The whistleblower filed a complaint about a July 25 phone call in which Trump appeared to pressure Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy to investigate Democratic presidential hopeful Joe Biden and his businessman son Hunter Biden.

        The whistleblower's revelations led to House Democrats opening an impeachment inquiry last week. Trump froze $400 million in U.S. aid to Ukraine shortly before speaking to Zelenskiy and Democrats accuse Trump of misusing U.S. foreign policy and taxpayer dollars for personal gain. Trump has dismissed the matter as a hoax.

        Representative Mike Quigley, a Democratic member of the intelligence panel, told Reuters it was his understanding the negotiations are being conducted by the committee with the whistleblower’s lawyers and with the office of Joseph McGuire, the acting Director of National Intelligence.

        Quigley said it was his understanding that the negotiations involved the whistleblower's legal and physical protection.

        One issue being discussed is how and whether the whistleblower should identify unnamed White House officials the whistleblower cited in the complaint as having conveyed the contents of the phone call with Zelenskiy.

        A Democratic committee spokesman declined to comment.

        One of the sources familiar with the negotiations on securing the whistleblower's testimony said the person's main concern was protecting their identity.

        The whistleblower's lawyers wrote to Maguire, expressing concern about their client's safety. https://bit.ly/2Mcg8wA The Sept. 28 letter cited Trump's threats about how "spies and treason" were handled differently in the past, and reported offers by "certain individuals" of a $50,000 bounty for information related to his identity.

        The intelligence committee is considering allowing the whistleblower to testify from a location off Capitol Hill, with their voice and appearance obscured, according to two sources.

        House Democrats declined to comment on the negotiations but voiced support for efforts to conceal the whistleblower's identity from lawmakers.

        "We should make extraordinary efforts to protect the whistleblower, committee member Representative Jackie Speier told Reuters. "Interview him by video, change the nature of his voice, have him lighted in such a way that you can't see his face."

        The whistleblower said in the complaint that the transcript of Trump's conversation with Zelenskiy was stored in a highly classified computer system used only for secret intelligence information. It was not the first time that had been done for transcripts of Trump’s conversations with foreign leaders, the complaint said.

        For that reason, Quigley said the committee should be able to question the whistleblower on matters other than Ukraine. "I want to protect him or her and find out however much we can while protecting them and the whistleblower system," he said.
        ____________________

        This is what we've come to, thanks to Donald Trump and his enablers.

        My god...his ability to corrupt and pervert the justice system and governmental processes of this country is astounding. He makes Nixon's Saturday Night Massacre look like a child's tea party.
        “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

        Comment


        • https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...nese-president

          Trump reportedly told Xi during the conversation that he would stay quiet about protests in Hong Kong while the U.S. and China pursued trade negotiations.
          f*ck this guy.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
            Especially when his idea of "attack" is "throw tantrums like a special-needs toddler that got into daddy's cocaine stash"
            Tantrum politics is all the rage, so he is tapping into the zeitgeist. I had to laugh when all the middle aged men were piling onto Greta Thunberg about her 'tantrum' at the UN. There is nobody, and I mean not on the damned planet, who throws a tantrum like a middle aged guy who has just been contradicted. Trump is the King of his demographic.

            No indeed, you are absolutely correct. They sold their souls long ago, as did most of the rank-and-file GOP Congress. A few like Jeff Flake have dared to speak out, but they're also out of office, so they need not worry about reelection.
            There might be a handful in 'purple' seats who speak up, but thanks to gerrymandering & the dominance of Trumpism among the voter base most will be too scared of being primaryed. BTW, Trumpism seems a bit like Peronism with fewer tanks and less successes.

            I just don't see one. Biden is pretty much it. And as I've said, he's got his own baggage of bullshit and signs of dementia to boot.

            If Biden is the answer we are all doomed. His campaign was already in strife before all this blew up. if the fallout from impeachment is Joe losing the nomination that might be a cherry on top.

            I still have doubts about Warren, but she has impressed me more than I expected thus far. I once thought Trump would tear her up in a one on one campaign, but I think that less & less. With his tantrum more or less set to 11 these days she will actually be able to look like a stable adult and brush aside a lot of his barbs. She has a few policies I'm not sure will sell well, but she seems the best of an imperfect lot.

            At this stage I'm not sure how many other viable options there are. Biden & Sanders ain't it. Harris is hated almost as much by the activists in her own party as she is by GOPers, and Booker is in the same boat - white left wingers like a certain sort of black person and those two ain't it. I'm not sure who, if anyone else, there is.
            sigpic

            Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

            Comment


            • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
              Oh good god...And now this is me throwing up my hands in despair.
              ....and that is just reading it. I had to bail lest my hands detach themselves from too much throwing.
              sigpic

              Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

              Comment


              • BF,

                Harris is hated almost as much by the activists in her own party as she is by GOPers,
                not that much. by a certain subset, yes, because formerly owning a job title of "prosecutor" makes them break out in hives.

                but the biggest problem with Harris is that she has no natural constituency. she's not the most leftwing of the bunch, she's not really a centrist or seen as particularly electable, and to date her most notable achievements on the campaign trail seem to be setting her up to be a future Attorney General in a Democratic administration.

                Warren has the momentum because she's basically seen as having Sanders' position mixed with Clintonian policy planning/pragmatism. it's made for some pretty entertaining election-watching; for instance, she pisses all over Silicon Valley and has scared the likes of Mark Zuckerberg, but for the most part techies LIKE her because she's seen as a fellow nerd.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  not that much. by a certain subset, yes, because formerly owning a job title of "prosecutor" makes them break out in hives.
                  I get the impression that anyone who has held a responsible job that required difficult decisions makes them break out in hives.

                  but the biggest problem with Harris is that she has no natural constituency. she's not the most leftwing of the bunch, she's not really a centrist or seen as particularly electable, and to date her most notable achievements on the campaign trail seem to be setting her up to be a future Attorney General in a Democratic administration.
                  She lacks any sort of cut through, which is something of a letdown. She can't be a worse AG than the current jellyfish, so I guess its not all bad.

                  Warren has the momentum because she's basically seen as having Sanders' position mixed with Clintonian policy planning/pragmatism. it's made for some pretty entertaining election-watching; for instance, she pisses all over Silicon Valley and has scared the likes of Mark Zuckerberg, but for the most part techies LIKE her because she's seen as a fellow nerd.
                  I've been enjoying some of the far left media attacks on her for basically not being Bernie ie. actually interested in governing rather than saying cool stuff. One guy denounced her as 'worse than Hilary' because she wasn't as obviously evil (well, obvious to a certain deluded subset). I still worry a bit about her judgement and some of her policy position - her position on private insurance seems unnecessary & very not pragmatic - she seems to be getting better at the whole campaigning thing.

                  Bernie's heart flutter and Biden's issues might make her path a bit easier. We'll see. Just curious, do you see any more credible candidate in the pack and if yes, is there a remote chance they'll win the nomination?
                  sigpic

                  Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                    When the six House committees tasked with the impeachment inquiry adopt articles of impeachment against Trump.
                    Likely this will take a couple of months, hopefully concluding before the new year.
                    Once the articles are adopted, they will be voted on by the entire House.
                    Good, two months then.

                    Everything said up to that point will be hot air. The equivalent of a media trial.

                    Media can put you in office and get you thrown out.

                    Bush also got bashed by them and managed a second term.

                    The Intelligence Committee will focus on the contents of the whistleblower's original complaint(s) and whether the complaint(s) may have been wrongfully hidden from Congress

                    The Foreign Affairs Committee will focus on interactions the State Department may have had with the President's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani

                    The Oversight and Reform Committee will investigate whether White House classification systems were used to secure potentially damaging records of phone calls between the President and leaders of various countries around the world.

                    I suspect that the other committees (Judiciary, Financial Services and Ways & Means) will investigate matters like the 2nd whistleblower's report on Trump's tax fraud. Among other things.
                    Wrongfully hidden means suppressed. It got out though.

                    Whether Giulani was helping him.

                    Whether there was more going on but existing checks were use to hide them

                    Sounds like a fishing expedition. They are looking for anything and everything and going aboard.

                    Let's just call this Mueller Part deux
                    Last edited by Double Edge; 04 Oct 19,, 09:25.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      That was back in June. Look at HK today. And tell me whether its true that Trump has sold out the people of HK as Warren alleges.

                      Had he done so there would be no ongoing protests and Beijing would have passed the extradition bill. Didn't happen. The Chinese press is saying these protests are externally supported.

                      But Trump didn't say anything so the CCP cannot call the protesters American agents. It's debatable whether saying something would help or make the situation worse. I'm in two minds over this I supported Obama saying something in Egypt & Iran. If you are a free country of some standing then you speak up. Course people here were telling me he should not have done that. Canada didn't shy away from calling the Saudis out. That is what distinguishes you from them.


                      Again the same question comes up.

                      Is asking China for dirt on Biden worse than finding it.

                      Trump reportedly told Xi during the conversation that he would stay quiet about protests in Hong Kong while the U.S. and China pursued trade negotiations.
                      I don't see a problem with this. There is a deal to be worked out and people should not get distracted. Protests in China are an internal matter and to date has been handled with kid gloves.

                      Trump and his allies have been pursuing unproven corruption allegations against Biden and his son Hunter involving a prosecutor in Ukraine who was looking into a Ukrainian energy company.

                      No evidence of wrongdoing has emerged on the part of either Biden.
                      That underlined bit would be the optimal outcome. If Biden is clean then Trump looking for something goes no where.

                      The matter concludes there.

                      The part that amuses me is Trump does not believe this. He thinks Biden is dirty and its a matter of time before he finds something. Given what people said about Hillary i'm not surprised.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 04 Oct 19,, 10:14.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                        The whistleblower filed a complaint about a July 25 phone call in which Trump appeared to pressure Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy to investigate Democratic presidential hopeful Joe Biden and his businessman son Hunter Biden.

                        The whistleblower's revelations led to House Democrats opening an impeachment inquiry last week. Trump froze $400 million in U.S. aid to Ukraine shortly before speaking to Zelenskiy and Democrats accuse Trump of misusing U.S. foreign policy and taxpayer dollars for personal gain. Trump has dismissed the matter as a hoax.
                        This looks like something they could use. It's also offering inducements for American arms.


                        Trump has suggested the whistleblower committed treason, prompting concerns among Democrats on the U.S. House of Representatives Intelligence Committee that testifying could raise the risk of exposure.
                        I don't know what compels whistleblowers to blow the whistle.

                        Conscience ?

                        In the case of Bradley Manning (later ms.) it was considered treason. But Obama pardoned him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                          I will only explain two things to people. One, how to do work on their car. Two, the what and why of their ocular system and the medical terms associated with it. That's because a hands on action are best described by someone with hands on experience at the task. The other because medical issues can simply be difficult to understand for many without a biology, physics and physiological background.

                          However, this subject does not fit the above. So I will tell you the same thing I tell my 10 year old when he asks something similar. I tell him he can stop playing games, and pick up a book on the subject, or remain ignorant. Choose. He has gotten smart. He chooses to learn so he can know as much as his Daddy.

                          Choose, or remain...
                          There is a misunderstanding here. You said look up impeachment history to show this process can proceed. I'm not disputing that.

                          A house controlled by opposition finds out the president is trying to get dirt on their guy means they are going to go hammer & tongs at him. Take him to the cleaners.

                          What i'm challenging is what is being speculated so far as possible charges. Those are debatable.

                          This is why i then asked when these charges will be framed so we know what they actually are.

                          It does not matter whether the impeachment is successful what matters is whether this process taints him enough to lose the election. That is where the polls will come in. He's in the high 40s and into low 50s for total approval. If that drops ten points and remains there he's gone.

                          Early days still. Where this goes remains to be seen and whether people think it matters or enough of them.

                          So far he has demonstrated that being shameless and un-statesman like does not matter. Nothing sticks.
                          Last edited by Double Edge; 04 Oct 19,, 11:19.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                            Polls have zero to do with the inquiry. I posted about polls for two reasons: Public opinion will inform how the GOP-controlled Senate votes during the trial following impeachment.

                            To redirect your attention to what I closed that post with:




                            The other reason I brought up polls is because you appeared to place some value on polls.
                            So, I'll speak your language when discussing this with you.
                            Surely finding common ground is a good way to debate?

                            Speaking of which, the GOP-leaning approval poll you provided is showing an interesting trend.
                            When the approval index hits -25 or worse, we'll know that Trump is probably on his way out. And he's 1/3 of the way there as of today.

                            Assuming of course the Dems don't completely fuck up the impeachment process. Which is entirely possible.
                            Fine then the prize here is to reduce his total approval. We will see whether it succeeds.

                            The 40% that refuse to believe even when he admitted shows his base is resistant.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                              ....and that is just reading it. I had to bail lest my hands detach themselves from too much throwing.
                              Yeah, I'm out. No more wasting my time.
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                              Comment


                              • Trump to Pelosi: White House won't cooperate on impeachment until the full House votes

                                WASHINGTON – President Donald Trump and aides plan to tell House Speaker Nancy Pelosi that they will not cooperate with the ongoing impeachment inquiry until the full House votes to authorize it, officials said Friday.

                                Democrats have said that Trump's refusal to answer subpoenas and provide documents could constitute an impeachable offense in and of itself as they investigate the president's dealings with Ukraine.

                                Even so, the White House is preparing a letter of objection to Pelosi that could be sent on Friday, said two officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because it has not yet been released.

                                White House officials said they want a full House vote on authorizing the impeachment inquiry that Pelosi herself announced last week.

                                Trump, meanwhile, again defended himself against claims that he pressured Ukraine to investigate Democratic political rival Joe Biden, using the prospect of U.S. aid as leverage.

                                Ukraine: Probe tied to Biden’s son among investigations to be reviewed by Ukraine prosecutor

                                Also under fire for asking China to investigate Biden, Trump tweeted Friday morning that "as President I have an obligation to end CORRUPTION, even if that means requesting the help of a foreign country or countries. It is done all the time. This has NOTHING to do with politics or a political campaign against the Bidens. This does have to do with their corruption!"

                                Biden has said Trump is the corrupt one, and is asking foreign countries to dig up dirt because he fears the former vice president will defeat him in 2020.

                                As for being "done all the time," historians and foreign policy analysts said no previous president has asked foreign countries to get involved in American politics the way Trump has.

                                The administration's letter to Pelosi seeking new rules on the impeachment inquiry is expected to echo a request sent earlier this week by House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif.

                                Ukraine: Text messages show U.S. diplomats believed U.S. aid was linked to Trump's demand for Biden

                                Criticizing "the swiftness and recklessness" of the impeachment drive, McCarthy asked Pelosi if Republicans would be let into the process and if administration lawyers could cross-examine witnesses.

                                "Unfortunately, you have given no clear indication as to how your impeachment inquiry will proceed – including whether key historical precedents or basic standards of due process will be observed,” McCarthy said in his letter.

                                In replying to McCarthy, Pelosi said the majority is proceeding under authority it already has.

                                “There is no requirement under the Constitution, under House Rules, or House precedent that the whole House vote before proceeding with an impeachment inquiry," Pelosi said in a letter to the House Republican leader.

                                The back-and-forth reflects the political pressures surrounding impeachment.

                                White House and Republican officials have said they want to get all House members on the record about whether they favor an impeachment investigation, particularly Democrats who represent districts carried by Trump in 2016.

                                Republicans also question whether Pelosi and the Democratic leadership could get their impeachment inquiry authorized by the full House.

                                “The problem is you don't have the votes,” Rep. Doug Collins, R-Ga., told Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler, D-N.Y., during a Sept. 17 hearing.

                                Pelosi has repeatedly said that committees are free to conduct their own impeachment investigation, and "there's no requirement that there be a floor vote." Democrats have also said they suspect the White House will try to stonewall their probe.

                                The impeachment investigation centers on Trump's request to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to have his government investigate U.S. political rival Joe Biden, a Democratic presidential candidate. Investigators are also looking at whether Trump held up aid to Ukraine until it agreed to investigate Biden and his son, who had business interests in the country.

                                On Thursday night, a group of House committee chairmen released text messages from diplomats describing an effort to lobby Zelensky into a public pledge to investigate Biden in exchange for the nearly $400 million in aid as well as a private meeting with Trump.

                                In a letter to colleagues, the House chairmen also referenced Trump's call on Thursday to have China investigate Biden over his son's business activities in that country.

                                “This is not normal or acceptable," the letter said. "It is unethical, unpatriotic, and wrong. American Presidents should never press foreign powers to target their domestic political rivals."

                                Trump has denied wrongdoing, and described the impeachment drive as a "coup" designed to drive him from office.
                                ______________

                                Translation: The White House will, regardless of any votes, stonewall, obstruct and denounce the House impeachment process from start to finish. Seen it all before Donnie.
                                “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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