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The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It

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  • Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Never seen such a carnival of lies as this Trumpian worship RNC. I thought it said it all when they had no agenda but now they claim they have one - one that is all lies.
    Snapper, what is an RNC? What I saw was the new Trumpian National Convention (TNC) of the Trumpian National Party.

    Boy, could I ever come up with an anacronym for this new party.

    Comment


    • [QUOTE=DOR;1068158]
      Originally posted by tantalus View Post

      Is this a trick question?
      The last Democratic VP is almost always going to be the front runner when going up against a GOPer-held White House.
      Truman.
      Humphrey.
      Mondale.
      Gore.
      Biden.
      See the pattern?

      Yes, except for Truman they all lost. Mondale winning only Minnesota and D.C.. Humphrey tried again in 72 but lost the nomination to McGovern. McGovern who would win Massachusetts in the election and well that was it.
      Last edited by Dazed; 28 Aug 20,, 17:42. Reason: Grammar going from poor to failing

      Comment


      • https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ianism/615640/

        The Platform the GOP Is Too Scared to Publish

        What the Republican Party actually stands for, in 13 points
        August 25, 2020

        David Frum

        Republicans have decided not to publish a party platform for 2020.

        This omission has led some to conclude that the GOP lacks ideas, that it stands for nothing, that it has shriveled to little more than a Trump cult.

        This conclusion is wrong. The Republican Party of 2020 has lots of ideas. I’m about to list 13 ideas that command almost universal assent within the Trump administration, within the Republican caucuses of the U.S. House and Senate, among governors and state legislators, on Fox News, and among rank-and-file Republicans.

        Once you read the list, I think you’ll agree that these are authentic ideas with meaningful policy consequences, and that they are broadly shared. The question is not why Republicans lack a coherent platform; it’s why they’re so reluctant to publish the one on which they’re running.

        1) The most important mechanism of economic policy—not the only tool, but the most important—is adjusting the burden of taxation on society’s richest citizens. Lower this level, as Republicans did in 2017, and prosperity will follow. The economy has had a temporary setback, but thanks to the tax cut of 2017, recovery is ready to follow strongly. No further policy change is required, except possibly lower taxes still.

        2) The coronavirus is a much-overhyped problem. It’s not that dangerous and will soon burn itself out. States should reopen their economies as rapidly as possible, and accept the ensuing casualties as a cost worth paying—and certainly a better trade-off than saving every last life by shutting down state economies. Masking is useless and theatrical, if not outright counterproductive.

        3) Climate change is a much-overhyped problem. It’s probably not happening. If it is happening, it’s not worth worrying about. If it’s worth worrying about, it’s certainly not worth paying trillions of dollars to amend. To the extent it is real, it will be dealt with in the fullness of time by the technologies of tomorrow. Regulations to protect the environment unnecessarily impede economic growth.

        4) China has become an economic and geopolitical adversary of the United States. Military spending should be invested with an eye to defeating China on the seas, in space, and in the cyberrealm. U.S. economic policy should recognize that relations with China are zero-sum: When China wins, the U.S. loses, and vice versa.

        5) The trade and alliance structures built after World War II are outdated. America still needs partners, of course, especially Israel and maybe Russia. But the days of NATO and the World Trade Organization are over. The European Union should be treated as a rival, the United Kingdom and Japan should be treated as subordinates, and Canada, Australia, and Mexico should be treated as dependencies. If America acts decisively, allies will have to follow whether they like it or not—as they will have to follow U.S. policy on Iran.

        6) Health care is a purchase like any other. Individuals should make their own best deals in the insurance market with minimal government supervision. Those who pay more should get more. Those who cannot pay must rely on Medicaid, accept charity, or go without.

        7) Voting is a privilege. States should have wide latitude to regulate that privilege in such a way as to minimize voting fraud, which is rife among Black Americans and new immigrant communities. The federal role in voting oversight should be limited to preventing Democrats from abusing the U.S. Postal Service to enable fraud by their voters.

        8) Anti-Black racism has ceased to be an important problem in American life. At this point, the people most likely to be targets of adverse discrimination are whites, Christians, and Asian university applicants. Federal civil-rights-enforcement resources should concentrate on protecting them.

        9) The courts should move gradually and carefully toward eliminating the mistake made in 1965, when women’s sexual privacy was elevated into a constitutional right.

        10) The post-Watergate ethics reforms overreached. We should welcome the trend toward unrestricted and secret campaign donations. Overly strict conflict-of-interest rules will only bar wealthy and successful businesspeople from public service. Without endorsing every particular action by the president and his family, the Trump administration has met all reasonable ethical standards.

        11) Trump’s border wall is the right policy to slow illegal immigration; the task of enforcing immigration rules should not fall on business operators. Some deal on illegal immigration must be found. The most important Republican priority in any such deal is to delay as long as possible full citizenship, voting rights, and health-care benefits for people who entered the country illegally.

        12) The country is gripped by a surge of crime and lawlessness as a result of the Black Lives Matter movement and its criticism of police. Police misconduct, such as that in the George Floyd case, should be punished. But the priority now should be to stop crime by empowering police.

        13) Civility and respect are cherished ideals. But in the face of the overwhelming and unfair onslaught against President Donald Trump by the media and the “deep state,” his occasional excesses on Twitter and at his rallies should be understood as pardonable reactions to much more severe misconduct by others.

        So there’s the platform. Why not publish it?

        There are two answers to that question, one simple, one more complicated.

        The simple answer is that President Trump’s impulsive management style has cast his convention into chaos. The location, the speaking program, the arrangements—all were decided at the last minute. Managing the rollout of a platform as well was just one task too many.
        The more complicated answer is that the platform I’ve just described, like so much of the Trump-Republican program, commands support among only a minority of the American people. The platform works (to the extent it does work) by exciting enthusiastic support among Trump supporters; but when stated too explicitly, it invites a backlash among the American majority. This is a platform for a party that talks to itself, not to the rest of the country. And for those purposes, the platform will succeed most to the extent that it is communicated only implicitly, to those receptive to its message.

        The challenge for Republicans in the week ahead is to hope that President Trump can remember, night after night, to speak only the things he’s supposed to speak—not to blurt the things his party wants its supporters to absorb unspoken.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

        Comment


        • Question? Should Biden debate Trump?

          We heard what Pelosi said. We have heard what Biden said. Today I have heard what Willie Brown said. For those who don't know he was Speaker of the House in California for quite some time. I wasn't a fan of his but I did admire the fact that he was the prototype for the consummate politician who knew politics inside and out. On news radio this morning he was saying Biden shouldn't debate Trump. One, Biden was not a natural debater. Two, Trump is a natural antagonizer. Three, Trump needs the debates far, far more than Biden. Fourth, when in the lead don't give the other guy a platform to attack.

          Opinions?

          Comment


          • frankly, does it matter at this stage? I mean...who's undecided anymore?

            I can't see anyone defecting to the other party, no matter how brilliantly either candidate does.

            it's an enormous waste of time, and it has been for quite a while. it's all about sticking to your script and trying to fit in a viral quote. HRC humiliated Trump over and over again, as evidenced by her poll numbers pre/post debate, but in the end it didn't save her.
            Last edited by astralis; 28 Aug 20,, 18:13.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              frankly, does it matter at this stage? I mean...who's undecided anymore?

              I can't see anyone defecting to the other party, no matter how brilliantly either candidate does.

              it's an enormous waste of time, and it has been for quite a while. it's all about sticking to your script and trying to fit in a viral quote. HRC humiliated Trump over and over again, as evidenced by her poll numbers pre/post debate, but in the end it didn't save her.
              So there are none of the undecideds in the what 4-6% range this year? Or are the undecideds really decided but won't admit if to pollsters. I know there are closet Trump supporters who are too shy/embarrassed to admit it to pollsters.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                frankly, does it matter at this stage? I mean...who's undecided anymore?

                I can't see anyone defecting to the other party, no matter how brilliantly either candidate does.

                it's an enormous waste of time, and it has been for quite a while. it's all about sticking to your script and trying to fit in a viral quote. HRC humiliated Trump over and over again, as evidenced by her poll numbers pre/post debate, but in the end it didn't save her.
                They are surely less relevent to most voters but most voters aren't relevent.

                A swing state can come down to thousands of votes so I think its best to assume it can matter so the decision to debate is potentially an important decision, its a reasonable question if you think down and upside are unequal. I think biden is struggling so he could come across weak in the debate. Ultimately only him and his team know if he is significantly vulnerable, they just need to make the right decision with the info on hand.

                I agree biden just needs a bare min pass and thats a win for him.

                Comment


                • well, Biden himself says he's gonna do it and that he's going to be Trump's "fact-checker" on stage.

                  I think Biden fundamentally misunderstands Trump's modus operandi if he really thinks fact-checking will be an effective riposte.

                  Trump throws crap against the wall and doesn't mind the fact-checking because in the process of fact-checking, people will repeat his falsehood. Trump, moreover, just leverages the existing polarization and rejects that there are actually facts at all. Tom Cotton just demonstrated this:

                  https://twitter.com/tomcottonar/stat...67532893564929

                  Steve Bannon called this tactic "flooding the zone with shit".
                  There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                    People have said they are Ok with taxes as long as it is the other guy paying them. It can also be applied to death...
                    Too true, the tyranny of the self

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      well, Biden himself says he's gonna do it and that he's going to be Trump's "fact-checker" on stage.

                      I think Biden fundamentally misunderstands Trump's modus operandi if he really thinks fact-checking will be an effective riposte.

                      Trump throws crap against the wall and doesn't mind the fact-checking because in the process of fact-checking, people will repeat his falsehood. Trump, moreover, just leverages the existing polarization and rejects that there are actually facts at all. Tom Cotton just demonstrated this:

                      https://twitter.com/tomcottonar/stat...67532893564929

                      Steve Bannon called this tactic "flooding the zone with shit".
                      Agreed. He basically is impossible and pointless to debate, simultaneously.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                        well, Biden himself says he's gonna do it and that he's going to be Trump's "fact-checker" on stage.

                        I think Biden fundamentally misunderstands Trump's modus operandi if he really thinks fact-checking will be an effective riposte.

                        Trump throws crap against the wall and doesn't mind the fact-checking because in the process of fact-checking, people will repeat his falsehood. Trump, moreover, just leverages the existing polarization and rejects that there are actually facts at all. Tom Cotton just demonstrated this:

                        https://twitter.com/tomcottonar/stat...67532893564929

                        Steve Bannon called this tactic "flooding the zone with shit".
                        Or: "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
                        Last edited by tbm3fan; 28 Aug 20,, 20:18.

                        Comment


                        • Oh and today is Friday and the witching hour, the weekend, is coming.

                          Ratings are coming out. DNC drew more than TNC. Biden drew more than Trump.

                          Wait for it...tweet...spin...dark conspiracy...media...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                            Tantalus


                            Feels like an opportunity missed for sanders and biden to have placed out contrasting visions for a different society post covid.

                            They did have different views...and Bernie's view lost out to Joe's once mainstream Democrats started voting in elections beyond Iowa & New Hampshire.

                            And post-covid world....in February?!?!?

                            In February Covid was seen as an isolated outbreak, serious but not what it became because of a disastrous federal response.

                            .
                            I meant if the primary had been later or covid earlier it would have been viewed beyond just trump and who is best placed to beat him.

                            I appreciate the outcome most likely remains the same.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                              ^ yes, Bernie couldn't sell his vision/leadership to Dem primary supporters, let alone the general electorate.

                              and this is the -second- time he's gotten beat. everyone knows what Bernie stands for, and to the burning anger of the Bernie-bros, people are just not on-board.

                              things might be different if this was Mitt Romney and not Donald Trump that the Dems are trying to unseat, but if "ifs, ands, or buts" were candied nuts, we'd all be fat.
                              Yep, Still too soon for the usa. Agreed, Small possibility trump is a smokescreen and you guys were ready. Greater possibility covid may set off a chain that tips you over in the years to come.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                                tantalus,
                                The “world view” between Democrats and Republicans isn't all that different.
                                It's the tactics, and the total lack of loyalty to nation over party, that is the main divide between us.
                                Ok thats interesting and I think I agree on both counts but help me a little.

                                What do you mean with regard world view?

                                And what do you mean with regard nation? fatherland, constitution, the people, american exceptionalism...

                                Originally posted by DOR View Post
                                tantalus,

                                As for front runner vs. best choice, that's outside the realm of American politics in the last 40-50 years. The best possible candidate, as determined by the GOPers and reluctantly adopted by the Democrats, is the one who will win. Not a lot that matters after that, given the stakes.
                                There can be many ways to win but your point is noted.

                                What would your best choice that can't win look like?

                                Originally posted by DOR View Post
                                tantalus,

                                Values candidates are the ones that voters identify as being more in favor of Mom, baseball, and apple pie. People with values that are considered representative of the best America has to offer.

                                Jimmy Carter was the top of the class in American history in that particular category, regardless of your politics. Two guesses who's on the bottom of the pile.
                                Well not mutually exclusive from the right policy. But will pass on the baseball.

                                Genereous, one will do.

                                Comment

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