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The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It

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  • Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Packing the court is a way to bypass Congress, even FDR ultimately shied away from it.

    The fillibuster is useful in slowing down government and preventing single party authoritarianism. It is a useful tool to force concensus. If the parties are so divided then the one who thinks its just such an important issue should go try and win an election. Ending the fillibuster is a way to disenfranchise voters once removed.

    The EC protects minority voices. If you really wanted a fairer system then award EC votes based on who won the congressional district with popular vote winner getting the +2 senate votes. It by-passes the winner take all and hamstrings jerry mandering. Won't happen becuase doing that would restore an electoral voice to places like Up State NY, rural California and all of Illinois outside of Chicago. Given voters a voice isn't really whats behind the drive to nix the EC.

    Third Party ballot harvesting is only legal in California and has already dubiously swung several elections there. Letting party activists collect votes or letting third parties handle ballots in general is a bad idea. It destroys integrity and opens the door for all sorts of mayhem.

    Making Guam, PR and DC states is only a fad as a way to pack the senate. Especially DC where the concentration of money and power is already so concentrated that the area has more millionaires than even silicon valley.

    They are all schemes that add up to an enabling act to establish 1 party rule by a party that has turned decidedly red.
    The Hughes Court (1930-41) wasn't to be expanded to get past congress. It was to be expanded to get past the Hughes Court. The four-man conservative wing blocked one too many of FDR's New Deal policies, so he tried to expand it. It failed, but if it had passed, POTUS would be empowered to appoint an additional justice for every one over the age of 70-1/2 years.

    FDR didn't shy away from it; congress defeated the plan.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

    Comment


    • GVChamp,

      Kamala Harris was the 14th (of 19) candidate to drop out of the race, out-lasting Hickenlooper, Gillibrand, de Blasio, O'Rourke, and 10 others. That's a long ways from running “an ineffective campaign that ultimately flamed out before the contest even started.”

      Credit where credit's due: the woman beat just under 75% of the field.

      As for Warren, the last time a major party nominated – on either end of the ticket – a former member of the other party (Warren was a GOPer before seeing the light) was Ronald Reagan, and that didn't work out so well.

      tbm3fan defined this year's contest in two words that work really, really well for most Americans.

      .Funny how people protesting far too many decades of police brutality can be accused of causing hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars of damage, but one orange Mussolini can shave a trillion or more off the national economy and still find enough GOPers to get renominated.

      I guess we can now drop the notion of the GOP as the party of business, just like we dropped the silly idea that it was the party of fiscal responsibility or the party of Lincoln.

      But, to criticize Joe Biden for being an originalist on constitutional matters? Really?
      After all, when that phrase about “arms” for a well-ordered militia was drafted, there were no pump-action shotguns, or large capacity magazines, or semi-automatic rifles, or …?
      Trust me?
      I'm an economist!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DOR View Post
        But, to criticize Joe Biden for being an originalist on constitutional matters? Really?
        After all, when that phrase about “arms” for a well-ordered militia was drafted, there were no pump-action shotguns, or large capacity magazines, or semi-automatic rifles, or …?
        Oh for Pete sakes, this is the most stupid arguement you can get. You want a "well armed milita" without "pump-action shotguns, or large capacity magazines, or semi-automatic rifles, or …?" to face foes with tanks, howitzers, nuke carrying bombers, and nuke tipped rockets.

        I have news for you. If you didn't have the arms industries you had, you would be speaking Spanish, Japanese, or Russian by now and your much touted Consitution? Mexican, Japanese, or Russian toilet paper.
        Chimo

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DOR View Post

          But, to criticize Joe Biden for being an originalist on constitutional matters? Really?
          After all, when that phrase about “arms” for a well-ordered militia was drafted, there were no pump-action shotguns, or large capacity magazines, or semi-automatic rifles, or …?
          No internet or abortion either.... Come now ye fine fellows, let us converse with quill and parchment and ye'ladies get back to the kitchen until its time to make babies.

          Never mind that a militia needs arms in common with the military ie 5.56mm. You also misunderstand militia. Its not the national guard its citizens protecting each other. When our country was young, it was beset with hostile parties: British forts in the West, hostile Indians, Pirates, river gangs and outlaws. Militias were local to deal with local problems and the federal call up was a decidedly 3rd place duty. Much of the militias duties were superseded by law enforcement but the Dems calls to defund the police and tactic encouragement of street violence is going to bring the traditional community militia back in vogue. Oh and in case anyone misses the obvious, wide spread community militias are often the opening muscle of civil wars. One of the great benefits of professional law enforcement is it reduces the need for drilling on the commons.... The citizen could keep arms for home defense and hunting but wasn't really part of the wider community efforts at controlling crime.

          Comment


          • z,

            I though you had a better grasp of history than that. Have you seen whats been going on? Political violence in the streets is becoming the norm. Your black shirts are actively pursuing direct action against their political enemies. They are not even pretending anymore. A couple of nights ago in Portland they were dragging a guillotine through residential streets while the burned American flags. Those are your boys, aided and encouraged by the bulk of the American Left.
            you're actually proving my point.

            same with Charlottesville, with the rancher protests, the Proud Boys, III%, the Boogaloo, etc.

            bottom-line is CURRENT legislative paralysis is what gives the extremist groups oxygen. moreover, it's why each President -- Trump now, Obama before him, Bush before that-- have relied more and more on executive powers. and are popular FOR overreaching, because they're at least attempting to do what Congress simply will not.

            this is beyond specific ideology. the current system as it is gives enormous political incentives for an overreaching executive branch, Dem or GOP. it also pushes people to seek extralegal redress for their concerns, precisely because they know everything dies in the legislative branch. ultimately this weakens the Party system and democracy altogether because Congress cannot address their concerns.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              same with Charlottesville, with the rancher protests, the Proud Boys, III%, the Boogaloo, etc.
              You forgot Qanon, but fortunately Donald Trump and his Administration have disavowed them, and the FBI doesn't consider them to a be a domestic terrorist threat.
              .

              Oh wait, NONE of that is true!

              Mark Meadows Refuses To Disavow QAnon After Claiming He Googled It To Find Out What It Is

              White House chief of staff Mark Meadows insisted on Fox News Sunday that he hadn’t a clue about the dangerous right-wing conspiracy cult QAnon — and had to “Google [it] to figure out what it is.”

              “I don’t know anything about it,” Meadows said, even after his Google research, in a testy exchange with host Chris Wallace. He then refused to disavow the group, which has been labeled a domestic terror threat in a recent report by the FBI. He called the issue “ridiculous.”

              Meadows should have checked with Homeland Security’s acting Secretary Chad Wolf, who’s aware of the FBI’s conclusions about QAnon, and told Jake Tapper on CNN Sunday that he had no reason to question them.

              Meadows launched into a heated back-and-forth with Wallace during questioning about President Donald Trump’s increasing support for the group, whose disciples the president has insisted “love our country.”

              Meadows blasted Wallace’s question as “appalling,” and declared that it shouldn’t be asked with “all the important things going on.”

              Meadows finally insisted: ”I don’t see it as a legitimate thing that should be addressed, so we’re not going to address it.”

              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

              Comment


              • None of those examples have anything at all to do with legislative problems. One has roots in 50 years of BLM/Rancher animosity, one in a state issue over monuments and the other as a reaction to your sides fielding of black bloc street violence.

                Comment


                • it's not the groups themselves, but the wider support of it. same thing with conspiracy theories like QAnon.

                  in an earlier era, they would have been laughed out of town by the people in power, because consorting with those types would be deadly dangerous to political reputation.

                  now, these nutjobs are getting -elected-, or are openly being pandered to.

                  because Congress has turned from an arena of negotiation to an arena of posturing. and the more you posture, the more viral you are -- and the more funding you get.
                  There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                  Comment


                  • Isn’t Roseanne Barr into that Qanon theory mumbo jumbo?

                    But let me know wen the burn up a car dealership or loot up and down Rodeo Drive.
                    Last edited by surfgun; 24 Aug 20,, 18:54.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      it's not the groups themselves, but the wider support of it. same thing with conspiracy theories like QAnon.

                      in an earlier era, they would have been laughed out of town by the people in power, because consorting with those types would be deadly dangerous to political reputation.

                      now, these nutjobs are getting -elected-, or are openly being pandered to.[

                      because Congress has turned from an arena of negotiation to an arena of posturing. and the more you posture, the more viral you are -- and the more funding you get.
                      I seem to remember your side yelling Russia, Russia, Russia and now it turns out that the whole thing was cooked up hook line and sinker by the Brooking Inst. Then of course the whole 1619 project and let us not forget the current whats old is new fad Marxism. Before that it was 9-11 was an inside job and Bush invaded Iraq for oil. Yet you want to concentrate on a few internet loons who think Epstien was just the tip of the iceberg... except There is a ton of evidence something is wrong in Holly Wood. No I am not a Qanoner, I think they are loons. IIRC They also think there is a deep state out to get Trump, something Trump thinks as well. Problem is we now have an FBI agent headed to prison and several people referred for prosecution of fired for cause in what sure looks like a deep state. But the Left studiously ignores all that and drowns it out with shouts of, "orange man bad"!

                      Meanwhile those of us on the right keep trying to point out that hey your side now has committed tens of thousands of physical assaults and racist attacks, hundreds of sexual assaults, and several murders including the attempted mass assassination of a group of Congressmen not to mention billions in property damage and lost business but you never utter a peep.

                      Comment


                      • :shrug:

                        this is why it's impossible to have a rational discussion, because I'm talking about legislative paralysis and its baleful effects on democracy, and you're talking about...something that's not legislative paralysis.
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by astralis View Post

                          in an earlier era, they would have been laughed out of town by the people in power, because consorting with those types would be deadly dangerous to political reputation.

                          now, these nutjobs are getting -elected-, or are openly being pandered to.

                          because Congress has turned from an arena of negotiation to an arena of posturing. and the more you posture, the more viral you are -- and the more funding you get.
                          It's not just the Congress though is it? All social and political discourse has deteriorated into posturing and symbolism. It was the media which started and propagated this. This has now spread far and wide into social media and into people's daily lives. The Congress is just one of the victims of this. The politician's fortunes depend on how they are portrayed by which section of the media. Getting praised by Fox News and pilloried by NYT is excellent news for a Republican but terrible news for a Democrat and vice versa. Now they have to be worried about getting canceled on Social Media as well. The only way to survive in such an environment is the right kind of posturing, on everything.

                          It is the people themselves driving the Congress to this insanity.

                          Comment


                          • It's not just the Congress though is it? All social and political discourse has deteriorated into posturing and symbolism. It was the media which started and propagated this. This has now spread far and wide into social media and into people's daily lives. The Congress is just one of the victims of this. The politician's fortunes depend on how they are portrayed by which section of the media. Getting praised by Fox News and pilloried by NYT is excellent news for a Republican but terrible news for a Democrat and vice versa. Now they have to be worried about getting canceled on Social Media as well. The only way to survive in such an environment is the right kind of posturing, on everything.

                            It is the people themselves driving the Congress to this insanity.
                            IMHO, this isn't really an useful way of looking at it, because if it is the "people", or "media", then what solution is there?

                            i'd argue that it's a matter of political incentives. gerrymandering, elimination of the "pork barrel", the discovery that people-- and specifically, voters-- engage more with a message of outrage, all play a part.

                            my bottom-line is that there's so many factors playing into the destruction of the old system of compromise, that it's almost impossible to unravel now. much easier to break a vase than it is to fix it.
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                              I seem to remember your side yelling Russia, Russia, Russia and now it turns out that the whole thing was cooked up hook line and sinker by the Brooking Inst.
                              Funny that you say that when a bipartisan Senate committee has said otherwise.

                              U.S. Senate committee concludes Russia used Manafort, WikiLeaks to boost Trump in 2016

                              WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Russia used Republican political operative Paul Manafort, the WikiLeaks website and others to try to influence the 2016 U.S. presidential election to help now-U.S. President Donald Trump's campaign, a Senate intelligence panel report said on Tuesday.

                              WikiLeaks played a key role in Russia's effort to assist Republican Trump against Democrat Hillary Clinton and likely knew it was helping Russian intelligence, said the report, which is likely to be the most definitive public account of the 2016 election controversy.

                              The report found President Vladimir Putin personally directed the Russian efforts to hack computer networks and accounts affiliated with the Democratic Party and leak information damaging to Clinton.

                              The panel, formally called the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, also alleged Manafort collaborated with Russians, including oligarch Oleg Deripaska and an alleged Russian intelligence operative, Konstantin Kilimnik, before during and after the election.


                              The panel found Manafort's role and proximity to Trump created opportunities for Russian intelligence, saying his "high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with the Russian intelligence services... represented a grave counterintelligence threat."

                              It was not clear what effect, if any, the report might have on the current U.S. presidential campaign in which Trump faces Democrat Joe Biden in the Nov. 3 U.S. election.

                              Opinion polls show former vice president Biden has built an expansive lead in nearly every battleground state that Trump won narrowly in 2016, as the Republican's approval numbers tumble amid the coronavirus pandemic.

                              Russia's alleged election interference, which Moscow denies, sparked a two-year-long U.S. investigation headed by Special Counsel Robert Mueller.

                              Mueller found no conclusive evidence of coordination between Russia and the Trump campaign in a report released last year. He pointed at 10 instances in which Trump may have attempted to impede his investigation but did not say whether this amounted to obstruction of justice.

                              Trump and his supporters have consistently bristled at suggestions foreign interference helped his upset 2016 victory and sought to discredit the intelligence agencies' findings as the politically charged work of a "deep state."

                              Founded by Julian Assange, WikiLeaks published thousands of emails hacked from Clinton's campaign and a top campaign aide in the weeks before the 2016 election, yielding a drum beat of negative coverage about the Democrat.

                              "WikiLeaks actively sought, and played, a key role in the Russian campaign and very likely knew it was assisting a Russian intelligence influence effort, the report said, saying the panel found "significant indications that Julian Assange and WikiLeaks have benefited from Russian government support."

                              As Russian military intelligence and WikiLeaks released the hacked documents, the report said Trump's campaign sought advance notice, devised messaging strategies to amplify them "and encouraged further theft of information and ... leaks."

                              "The Trump campaign publicly undermined the attribution of the hack-and-leak campaign to Russia and was indifferent to whether it and WikiLeaks were furthering a Russian election interference effort," the report added.

                              The committee could not establish the extent to which Trump campaign advisor Roger Stone had real inside access to WikiLeaks materials, the report said.
                              _____________
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by surfgun View Post
                                Isn’t Roseanne Barr into that Qanon theory mumbo jumbo?

                                But let me know wen the burn up a car dealership or loot up and down Rodeo Drive.
                                Oh please. You and I both know that Trump could murder someone in cold blood on Fifth Avenue in broad daylight and you'd still vote for him.

                                And Trump knows it too.

                                So why not just come out and say it?
                                “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                                Comment

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