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  • Originally posted by astralis View Post
    frankly, does it matter at this stage? I mean...who's undecided anymore?

    I can't see anyone defecting to the other party, no matter how brilliantly either candidate does.

    it's an enormous waste of time, and it has been for quite a while. it's all about sticking to your script and trying to fit in a viral quote. HRC humiliated Trump over and over again, as evidenced by her poll numbers pre/post debate, but in the end it didn't save her.
    So there are none of the undecideds in the what 4-6% range this year? Or are the undecideds really decided but won't admit if to pollsters. I know there are closet Trump supporters who are too shy/embarrassed to admit it to pollsters.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
      frankly, does it matter at this stage? I mean...who's undecided anymore?

      I can't see anyone defecting to the other party, no matter how brilliantly either candidate does.

      it's an enormous waste of time, and it has been for quite a while. it's all about sticking to your script and trying to fit in a viral quote. HRC humiliated Trump over and over again, as evidenced by her poll numbers pre/post debate, but in the end it didn't save her.
      They are surely less relevent to most voters but most voters aren't relevent.

      A swing state can come down to thousands of votes so I think its best to assume it can matter so the decision to debate is potentially an important decision, its a reasonable question if you think down and upside are unequal. I think biden is struggling so he could come across weak in the debate. Ultimately only him and his team know if he is significantly vulnerable, they just need to make the right decision with the info on hand.

      I agree biden just needs a bare min pass and thats a win for him.

      Comment


      • well, Biden himself says he's gonna do it and that he's going to be Trump's "fact-checker" on stage.

        I think Biden fundamentally misunderstands Trump's modus operandi if he really thinks fact-checking will be an effective riposte.

        Trump throws crap against the wall and doesn't mind the fact-checking because in the process of fact-checking, people will repeat his falsehood. Trump, moreover, just leverages the existing polarization and rejects that there are actually facts at all. Tom Cotton just demonstrated this:

        https://twitter.com/tomcottonar/stat...67532893564929

        Steve Bannon called this tactic "flooding the zone with shit".
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
          People have said they are Ok with taxes as long as it is the other guy paying them. It can also be applied to death...
          Too true, the tyranny of the self

          Comment


          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
            well, Biden himself says he's gonna do it and that he's going to be Trump's "fact-checker" on stage.

            I think Biden fundamentally misunderstands Trump's modus operandi if he really thinks fact-checking will be an effective riposte.

            Trump throws crap against the wall and doesn't mind the fact-checking because in the process of fact-checking, people will repeat his falsehood. Trump, moreover, just leverages the existing polarization and rejects that there are actually facts at all. Tom Cotton just demonstrated this:

            https://twitter.com/tomcottonar/stat...67532893564929

            Steve Bannon called this tactic "flooding the zone with shit".
            Agreed. He basically is impossible and pointless to debate, simultaneously.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              well, Biden himself says he's gonna do it and that he's going to be Trump's "fact-checker" on stage.

              I think Biden fundamentally misunderstands Trump's modus operandi if he really thinks fact-checking will be an effective riposte.

              Trump throws crap against the wall and doesn't mind the fact-checking because in the process of fact-checking, people will repeat his falsehood. Trump, moreover, just leverages the existing polarization and rejects that there are actually facts at all. Tom Cotton just demonstrated this:

              https://twitter.com/tomcottonar/stat...67532893564929

              Steve Bannon called this tactic "flooding the zone with shit".
              Or: "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
              Last edited by tbm3fan; 28 Aug 20,, 20:18.

              Comment


              • Oh and today is Friday and the witching hour, the weekend, is coming.

                Ratings are coming out. DNC drew more than TNC. Biden drew more than Trump.

                Wait for it...tweet...spin...dark conspiracy...media...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                  Tantalus


                  Feels like an opportunity missed for sanders and biden to have placed out contrasting visions for a different society post covid.

                  They did have different views...and Bernie's view lost out to Joe's once mainstream Democrats started voting in elections beyond Iowa & New Hampshire.

                  And post-covid world....in February?!?!?

                  In February Covid was seen as an isolated outbreak, serious but not what it became because of a disastrous federal response.

                  .
                  I meant if the primary had been later or covid earlier it would have been viewed beyond just trump and who is best placed to beat him.

                  I appreciate the outcome most likely remains the same.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                    ^ yes, Bernie couldn't sell his vision/leadership to Dem primary supporters, let alone the general electorate.

                    and this is the -second- time he's gotten beat. everyone knows what Bernie stands for, and to the burning anger of the Bernie-bros, people are just not on-board.

                    things might be different if this was Mitt Romney and not Donald Trump that the Dems are trying to unseat, but if "ifs, ands, or buts" were candied nuts, we'd all be fat.
                    Yep, Still too soon for the usa. Agreed, Small possibility trump is a smokescreen and you guys were ready. Greater possibility covid may set off a chain that tips you over in the years to come.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                      tantalus,
                      The “world view” between Democrats and Republicans isn't all that different.
                      It's the tactics, and the total lack of loyalty to nation over party, that is the main divide between us.
                      Ok thats interesting and I think I agree on both counts but help me a little.

                      What do you mean with regard world view?

                      And what do you mean with regard nation? fatherland, constitution, the people, american exceptionalism...

                      Originally posted by DOR View Post
                      tantalus,

                      As for front runner vs. best choice, that's outside the realm of American politics in the last 40-50 years. The best possible candidate, as determined by the GOPers and reluctantly adopted by the Democrats, is the one who will win. Not a lot that matters after that, given the stakes.
                      There can be many ways to win but your point is noted.

                      What would your best choice that can't win look like?

                      Originally posted by DOR View Post
                      tantalus,

                      Values candidates are the ones that voters identify as being more in favor of Mom, baseball, and apple pie. People with values that are considered representative of the best America has to offer.

                      Jimmy Carter was the top of the class in American history in that particular category, regardless of your politics. Two guesses who's on the bottom of the pile.
                      Well not mutually exclusive from the right policy. But will pass on the baseball.

                      Genereous, one will do.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                        They are surely less relevent to most voters but most voters aren't relevent.

                        A swing state can come down to thousands of votes so I think its best to assume it can matter so the decision to debate is potentially an important decision, its a reasonable question if you think down and upside are unequal. I think biden is struggling so he could come across weak in the debate. Ultimately only him and his team know if he is significantly vulnerable, they just need to make the right decision with the info on hand.

                        I agree biden just needs a bare min pass and thats a win for him.
                        Not showing up to a Presidential debate isn't exactly a "downside vs. upside" thing. It's a norm in Presidential politics for the last few decades. It might be highly damaging to NOT debate the President, and when all you have to do is not massively fuck-up, not agreeing to a debate is way, way more downside than upside.

                        Like, Biden wasn't GREAT during some of the Dem debates, but I don't think he'd do so poorly that he'd squander a 7 point polling lead. That'd be catastrophically bad. I don't know, he'd basically have to rip off his pants and jack off on stage.
                        "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                          Not showing up to a Presidential debate isn't exactly a "downside vs. upside" thing. It's a norm in Presidential politics for the last few decades. It might be highly damaging to NOT debate the President, and when all you have to do is not massively fuck-up, not agreeing to a debate is way, way more downside than upside.

                          Like, Biden wasn't GREAT during some of the Dem debates, but I don't think he'd do so poorly that he'd squander a 7 point polling lead. That'd be catastrophically bad. I don't know, he'd basically have to rip off his pants and jack off on stage.
                          Hard to measure given there is no precendent but I see your point.

                          The fact he navigated the democratic debates recently does suggest strongly he can do so here.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                            Ok thats interesting and I think I agree on both counts but help me a little.

                            What do you mean with regard world view?

                            And what do you mean with regard nation? fatherland, constitution, the people, american exceptionalism...


                            There can be many ways to win but your point is noted.

                            What would your best choice that can't win look like?


                            Well not mutually exclusive from the right policy. But will pass on the baseball.

                            Genereous, one will do.

                            World view:
                            America (United States of, if in doubt) deserves our loyalty, not the Russians, Chinese, or Saudis. Working with foreign nationals to undermine democracy is wrong. Those who command the most votes should be in charge. Voting is a right, and a duty. Anyone who tries to prevent a legitimate voter from exercising his/her rights to vote should be stopped and punished.

                            Best choice?
                            The most experienced, qualified person to run for the presidency ran against The Trumpet in 2016, and look where that got us. Yep, no one more qualified since George HW Bush but HR Clinton herself.
                            Trust me?
                            I'm an economist!

                            Comment


                            • It is said that you judge a person by the company they keep; all Trumpkin's first campaign team (or nearly all) either have or are facing criminal charges yet he claims to stand for 'Law and Order' while violating the law by holding a Party rally at the White House...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                                Not sure exactly what you are referring to here...are you disagreeing with me on the characterization of Bush/McCain/Romney? I may disagree with them on policies and execution of some programs but all three proved themselves as mainstream American politicians.
                                Sure, why not?
                                At least two out of three ...

                                Launch any unnecessary wars of aggression against the only secular government in the Middle East lately?
                                Sang "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" lately?

                                As for Romney, he will rise in my estimation the day he announces that he has left the GOPers for a party with a greater sense of loyalty to the nation.
                                Trust me?
                                I'm an economist!

                                Comment

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